Hello everyone,
I’ve been reading through various threads here for a few days now and have noticed that it always seems to come down to KNX in the end.
We currently live in a rental house where KNX is installed for the roller shutter control and the motion detectors for the outdoor lighting. There’s nothing smart about it, just networked. It could have been done with regular switches just as easily, but oh well.
As far as I know, the house and the system were built just before the turn of the millennium. In the last six months, 4 or even 5 actuators in the control cabinet had to be replaced. According to the electrician, it was an expensive experience for our landlord. That was also one of the reasons I was initially skeptical.
After reading a lot about it here in the forum, I would still like to give it a chance.
Long introduction, first the basic information:
1. We’ve just found our plot and are starting the planning phase with the architect. So I can’t provide floor plans yet. We did give him some wishes, but we’ll have to see what he comes up with. About 150m² (1,615 sq ft) of living space, 2 floors, no basement.
2. I would consider myself an experienced user of standard software, understand how an algorithm works, and can implement fairly complex rules with IFTTT. However, I can’t program. At most a bit of HTML, which probably won’t help me here.
3. We already use some smart devices. Hue bulbs, Osram smart plugs, for the sound system I chose MusicCast years ago instead of Sonos, entertainment electronics are controlled via Harmony Elite, and there’s an Alexa device as well. For example, my morning routine is set up through Alexa.
We’ve made the best out of the rental situation possible.
That’s also why my first thought was: Hey, just keep using Zigbee, it works...
There are certainly many use cases I haven’t thought of yet, but I do already have a few ideas in mind:
- Roller shutter control based on weather and time
- Alarm system control + visualization of open windows/doors, also on the smartphone when away
- Activating the alarm system when our two smartphones leave the Wi-Fi network
- Controlling the lawn robot and irrigation system based on soil conditions
- Visualization of photovoltaic output + battery storage status
- Video doorbell with door lock including remote unlocking via smartphone
- ...
As I said, we are still at the beginning and many ideas will come later.
For many of these approaches, there are standalone solutions, but naturally, they are difficult to integrate when new ideas come up.
Therefore, I have the following questions:
- Is there any alternative to KNX?
- Can costs be estimated in any way based on this information?
- Do you perhaps know a reliable provider in the Coburg area to talk to?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Best regards, Christian
I’ve been reading through various threads here for a few days now and have noticed that it always seems to come down to KNX in the end.
We currently live in a rental house where KNX is installed for the roller shutter control and the motion detectors for the outdoor lighting. There’s nothing smart about it, just networked. It could have been done with regular switches just as easily, but oh well.
As far as I know, the house and the system were built just before the turn of the millennium. In the last six months, 4 or even 5 actuators in the control cabinet had to be replaced. According to the electrician, it was an expensive experience for our landlord. That was also one of the reasons I was initially skeptical.
After reading a lot about it here in the forum, I would still like to give it a chance.
Long introduction, first the basic information:
1. We’ve just found our plot and are starting the planning phase with the architect. So I can’t provide floor plans yet. We did give him some wishes, but we’ll have to see what he comes up with. About 150m² (1,615 sq ft) of living space, 2 floors, no basement.
2. I would consider myself an experienced user of standard software, understand how an algorithm works, and can implement fairly complex rules with IFTTT. However, I can’t program. At most a bit of HTML, which probably won’t help me here.
3. We already use some smart devices. Hue bulbs, Osram smart plugs, for the sound system I chose MusicCast years ago instead of Sonos, entertainment electronics are controlled via Harmony Elite, and there’s an Alexa device as well. For example, my morning routine is set up through Alexa.
We’ve made the best out of the rental situation possible.
That’s also why my first thought was: Hey, just keep using Zigbee, it works...
There are certainly many use cases I haven’t thought of yet, but I do already have a few ideas in mind:
- Roller shutter control based on weather and time
- Alarm system control + visualization of open windows/doors, also on the smartphone when away
- Activating the alarm system when our two smartphones leave the Wi-Fi network
- Controlling the lawn robot and irrigation system based on soil conditions
- Visualization of photovoltaic output + battery storage status
- Video doorbell with door lock including remote unlocking via smartphone
- ...
As I said, we are still at the beginning and many ideas will come later.
For many of these approaches, there are standalone solutions, but naturally, they are difficult to integrate when new ideas come up.
Therefore, I have the following questions:
- Is there any alternative to KNX?
- Can costs be estimated in any way based on this information?
- Do you perhaps know a reliable provider in the Coburg area to talk to?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Best regards, Christian
EnOcean is quite good for experimenting or as an addition to an existing system.
Of course, smart homes can work without KNX. However, if you want an all-in-one solution, KNX is the standard you should rely on.
Otherwise, KNX can also be affordable. You just need to find the right partner.
Of course, smart homes can work without KNX. However, if you want an all-in-one solution, KNX is the standard you should rely on.
Otherwise, KNX can also be affordable. You just need to find the right partner.
There’s no need to take offense just because you don’t like the system or disagree with the policy. But that’s simply the way it is.
KNX is used to automate entire airports, or as it’s currently called, make them "smart." EnOcean can certainly serve as a supplementary solution, as your example clearly demonstrates.
P.S.
With KNX, probably less than half the number of devices would have been needed to achieve the same goal. EnOcean tends to rely more on quantity rather than quality, simply because the structure and limitations of the system require it.
But that doesn’t help the original poster. You can rely on any system you want. Ultimately, what matters most is how easy and comfortable operation, maintenance, reliability, flexibility, and future-proofing are. And in these areas, KNX is well ahead, followed by a gap, and then all the others.
KNX is used to automate entire airports, or as it’s currently called, make them "smart." EnOcean can certainly serve as a supplementary solution, as your example clearly demonstrates.
P.S.
With KNX, probably less than half the number of devices would have been needed to achieve the same goal. EnOcean tends to rely more on quantity rather than quality, simply because the structure and limitations of the system require it.
But that doesn’t help the original poster. You can rely on any system you want. Ultimately, what matters most is how easy and comfortable operation, maintenance, reliability, flexibility, and future-proofing are. And in these areas, KNX is well ahead, followed by a gap, and then all the others.
I am by no means offended, but repeating something over and over does not make it more accurate.
KNX is definitely not flexible. Try installing a new bus cable in a freshly plastered house in a new location. Above all, it is not flexible compared to EnOcean.
It is certainly not simple either. Otherwise, why would I need the $1000 professional software, which is actually not intended for end users?
I also do not understand why it would be easier to maintain. And its future reliability remains to be seen. EnOcean is, after all, older than KNX.
And whether it is cheaper or more expensive seems to no longer be a relevant factor here...
KNX is definitely not flexible. Try installing a new bus cable in a freshly plastered house in a new location. Above all, it is not flexible compared to EnOcean.
It is certainly not simple either. Otherwise, why would I need the $1000 professional software, which is actually not intended for end users?
I also do not understand why it would be easier to maintain. And its future reliability remains to be seen. EnOcean is, after all, older than KNX.
And whether it is cheaper or more expensive seems to no longer be a relevant factor here...
rdwlnts schrieb:
KNX is certainly not flexible. Try installing a new bus cable in a freshly plastered house in a new location. I do that from time to time, it’s not a problem at all. Especially in a freshly plastered house, everything is still possible. Even if there is already paint or wallpaper, it’s not a big deal. Just because someone can’t imagine how it’s done doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Besides, with KNX you plan ahead and lay cables everywhere in advance.
Again, if you don’t know how it works, you shouldn’t claim it’s impossible and inflexible. Renovations happen from time to time, and then you can install even more cables if needed.
KNX is much more flexible than it appears at first glance. Unfortunately, for many, their first impression is the last.
rdwlnts schrieb:
It’s certainly not simple. Or why would I need the $1000 professional software, which actually isn’t intended for end users? Well, creating an Excel spreadsheet with nested functions is harder. The professional software is rarely needed in a normal single-family house, and $1000 is only the list price—nobody really pays that.
rdwlnts schrieb:
EnOcean is definitely older than KNX. Again, poorly researched half-truths and nonsense. When EnOcean was still just a concept in the minds of Siemens engineers, KNX was already established and major players had formed an alliance. Thousands of installations had been running in Europe for decades. KNX originated as EIB in the mid-1980s, evolving from the Instabus group, which itself came from C-Bus, still used today in Australia, New Zealand, and other regions.
A little side fact: There are installations from those early days still running, and you can still find and purchase devices from back then. These devices can usually be integrated into modern KNX systems without any issues, often with just two or three mouse clicks.
Another side fact: One of my power supplies has been in continuous operation since 1999, including in my new house. It was simply too good to dispose of. It still works—and that’s the rule, not the exception, with KNX devices. That’s also why the price is what it is. Once purchased, it lasts for decades and usually never needs to be touched again.
rdwlnts schrieb:
And future-proofing still has to be proven. For EnOcean, yes—the future will show if it ever escapes its niche status.
KNX has long proven itself and can today truly play to its strengths. Only now, with the technology we have (smartphones, tablets, fast internet, IoT, etc.) can the full potential of a connected house be realized and experienced. In the 1990s and 2000s, KNX was well ahead of its time.
Please stay grounded. You don’t have the right to assume what I can or cannot imagine! Especially not when you try to prove how flexible KNX is by saying that everything should basically be planned from the start and that renovations are done only occasionally. I call that inflexible, you apparently call it flexible. Quite a strange way to argue.
And if anyone should be accused of nonsense, it should be yourself. EnOcean was founded in 2001, KNX was established in 2002. EIB is the predecessor but not the same as KNX! But I meant that more as a joke. Future viability cannot be proven by looking at the past.
I’m not trying to criticize KNX either. It has its justification. But constantly preaching that KNX is the only true solution and everything else is just a toy is unfortunately completely off the mark. Especially when prices from €20,000 to €80,000 (€20k to €80k) are spent and these no longer even impress but are considered normal.
And if anyone should be accused of nonsense, it should be yourself. EnOcean was founded in 2001, KNX was established in 2002. EIB is the predecessor but not the same as KNX! But I meant that more as a joke. Future viability cannot be proven by looking at the past.
I’m not trying to criticize KNX either. It has its justification. But constantly preaching that KNX is the only true solution and everything else is just a toy is unfortunately completely off the mark. Especially when prices from €20,000 to €80,000 (€20k to €80k) are spent and these no longer even impress but are considered normal.