Hello everyone,
The first offer from a developer includes an insulated basement:
- "White tank" (25cm (10 inches) waterproof reinforced concrete), with a bituminous waterproofing layer (reduces vapor diffusion)
- Perimeter insulation
- Barrier layer against rising moisture
- Underfloor heating
- Thermal insulation glazing
So, it would be the perfect basement.
The other developer, whose overall package we now prefer, states the following about the basement in the very sparse building description:
Shared (meaning for both semi-detached units) reinforced concrete slab as a waterproof construction ("white tank"). Thermal insulation on the basement ceiling within the ground floor flooring system. Thermal insulation of the slab in the stairwell area. Walls of reinforced concrete, uninsulated or with edge insulation. The basements are not intended as living spaces. Basement as a waterproof structure. Single-glazed basement windows.
There will also be a radiator in the stairwell area in the basement.
In one of the two basement rooms, laundry washing and beer brewing are planned. I intend to vent the brewing odors out through the basement window. Inside this room, I want to plaster with natural hydraulic lime.
The larger basement room is meant to be used occasionally as a recreational space. Maybe a foosball table, a couch, possibly a home cinema setup.
The building description states that condensation cannot be ruled out under unfavorable weather conditions. That doesn't sound very good to me. Honestly, it also doesn’t seem state-of-the-art, but that might just be my impression.
The basement room with the heat transfer station (district heating) will be mechanically ventilated according to the building description. What does that mean exactly? What should one imagine? Wouldn’t that rather bring in high humidity if warm outside air is pulled in during summer? Or could this ventilation even help remove the vapors produced during brewing in that room?
Now my request for help:
What measures can make the basement suitable for living spaces after all?
Is perimeter insulation on the walls sufficient?
Is adding interior insulation later advisable?
What do you think about the insulation of the slab in the stairwell area as described? From the inside? Could this insulation potentially be extended into one or two other rooms as well?
Regarding the laundry and brewing room: Do you see differences in mold risk between insulated and uninsulated basements in connection with water vapor?
Best regards
Ricard0
The first offer from a developer includes an insulated basement:
- "White tank" (25cm (10 inches) waterproof reinforced concrete), with a bituminous waterproofing layer (reduces vapor diffusion)
- Perimeter insulation
- Barrier layer against rising moisture
- Underfloor heating
- Thermal insulation glazing
So, it would be the perfect basement.
The other developer, whose overall package we now prefer, states the following about the basement in the very sparse building description:
Shared (meaning for both semi-detached units) reinforced concrete slab as a waterproof construction ("white tank"). Thermal insulation on the basement ceiling within the ground floor flooring system. Thermal insulation of the slab in the stairwell area. Walls of reinforced concrete, uninsulated or with edge insulation. The basements are not intended as living spaces. Basement as a waterproof structure. Single-glazed basement windows.
There will also be a radiator in the stairwell area in the basement.
In one of the two basement rooms, laundry washing and beer brewing are planned. I intend to vent the brewing odors out through the basement window. Inside this room, I want to plaster with natural hydraulic lime.
The larger basement room is meant to be used occasionally as a recreational space. Maybe a foosball table, a couch, possibly a home cinema setup.
The building description states that condensation cannot be ruled out under unfavorable weather conditions. That doesn't sound very good to me. Honestly, it also doesn’t seem state-of-the-art, but that might just be my impression.
The basement room with the heat transfer station (district heating) will be mechanically ventilated according to the building description. What does that mean exactly? What should one imagine? Wouldn’t that rather bring in high humidity if warm outside air is pulled in during summer? Or could this ventilation even help remove the vapors produced during brewing in that room?
Now my request for help:
What measures can make the basement suitable for living spaces after all?
Is perimeter insulation on the walls sufficient?
Is adding interior insulation later advisable?
What do you think about the insulation of the slab in the stairwell area as described? From the inside? Could this insulation potentially be extended into one or two other rooms as well?
Regarding the laundry and brewing room: Do you see differences in mold risk between insulated and uninsulated basements in connection with water vapor?
Best regards
Ricard0
B
Bauexperte5 Dec 2015 11:29Hello Ricardo,
Not quite, the ventilation is missing; at least a note about it would be reasonable.
What exactly is better about them? Although I think you might not mean a general contractor in either case, or are they providing both the land and house as a complete package?
If the rest of the specification is put together like that, I’m wondering again why you prefer this provider?
Open window, close window.
Raising the floor level, insulation; living space windows, installing pipes concealed in the walls + underfloor heating + ventilation.
If it is installed with a thickness of 12 cm (5 inches) or more: yes.
No.
How should we know? That should be verifiable in the building specification.
Neither option is recommended.
Regards, Bauexperte
Ricard0 schrieb:
So it would be the perfect basement.
Not quite, the ventilation is missing; at least a note about it would be reasonable.
Ricard0 schrieb:
With the other builder, whose overall package we like better now,
What exactly is better about them? Although I think you might not mean a general contractor in either case, or are they providing both the land and house as a complete package?
Ricard0 schrieb:
in the very sparse building specification:
If the rest of the specification is put together like that, I’m wondering again why you prefer this provider?
Ricard0 schrieb:
The basement room with the heat transfer station (district heating) is mechanically ventilated according to the building specification. What does that mean? What should one imagine?
Open window, close window.
Ricard0 schrieb:
What measures can make the basement suitable as living space?
Raising the floor level, insulation; living space windows, installing pipes concealed in the walls + underfloor heating + ventilation.
Ricard0 schrieb:
Is perimeter insulation on the walls sufficient?
If it is installed with a thickness of 12 cm (5 inches) or more: yes.
Ricard0 schrieb:
Is it advisable to insulate later from the inside?
No.
Ricard0 schrieb:
What do you think, how is the insulation of the ground slab planned in the stairwell area? From the inside? Could it then be continued in one or two other rooms as well?
How should we know? That should be verifiable in the building specification.
Ricard0 schrieb:
Regarding the laundry and brewing room: Do you see any differences in the risk of mold between insulated and uninsulated basement rooms in connection with water vapor?
Neither option is recommended.
Regards, Bauexperte
Hello Bauexperte,
The build specification will of course be expanded and clarified.
Living space windows: The windows are the same size and number as in the first developer’s offer. Two windows sized 80x60cm (31x24 inches), one per room. Is that at least enough for ventilation? Light is not important to me. Nobody will live down there either (except maybe a potential fourth child).
Exposed pipes are fine for my use case.
Underfloor heating and automated ventilation won’t be feasible.
Are radiators absolutely necessary to prevent moisture and mold? Assuming exterior insulation is installed.
Is interior insulation not recommended due to the risk of moisture buildup between concrete and insulation?
Thanks and best regards,
Ricard0
Edit:
I just realized I completely forgot to ask the main question:
If I have the basement constructed as described in the minimal build specification, apparently completely uninsulated, should I expect damp walls?
Bauexperte schrieb:Oh, my mistake. With the developer offering the "great basement," the basement was also connected to the controlled residential ventilation system.
Not quite, the ventilation is missing; at least a note about it would be reasonable.
What makes it better? Although I think you aren’t referring to a developer right now with either option, or do they provide both the land and house as a package?One developer with the better house offers a standard rectangular plot, while the other, with the "worse" house, provides a fantastic corner lot, almost twice the size. That also answers why we tend to prefer it.
If the rest of the build specification is also put together like that, I wonder again why you find that provider better?So far, the build specification is only preliminary, about two A4 pages. Marketing will only start at the beginning of next year. But talks are already underway to still have some buffer before the KfW-70 subsidy expires.
The build specification will of course be expanded and clarified.
Windows open, windows closedUh, okay. So mechanical exhaust means I have to take care of it myself? Great.
Additional storey, insulation; living space windows, pipes installed flush in the walls + underfloor heating + ventilation.12cm (5 inches) exterior insulation, okay – I will inquire about feasibility (or willingness) and costs with the developer.
Living space windows: The windows are the same size and number as in the first developer’s offer. Two windows sized 80x60cm (31x24 inches), one per room. Is that at least enough for ventilation? Light is not important to me. Nobody will live down there either (except maybe a potential fourth child).
Exposed pipes are fine for my use case.
Underfloor heating and automated ventilation won’t be feasible.
Are radiators absolutely necessary to prevent moisture and mold? Assuming exterior insulation is installed.
Is interior insulation not recommended due to the risk of moisture buildup between concrete and insulation?
Thanks and best regards,
Ricard0
Edit:
I just realized I completely forgot to ask the main question:
If I have the basement constructed as described in the minimal build specification, apparently completely uninsulated, should I expect damp walls?
The construction descriptions provided by developers should be detailed enough for a qualified inspector to identify and assess the materials used and the construction assemblies. The brief descriptions from providers only allow for a rough estimation of whether the requirements of the applicable DIN standards, the current state of technology, legal regulations such as the energy saving ordinance or the construction products regulation are met.
To assess the structural and building physics consistency of the proposed constructions, they would need to be described in detail. It is possible that the offer does not fully comply with all requirements of the energy saving ordinance; thermal bridges in the basement (KG) area may be expected, such as "flanking insulation," which can lead to condensation and mold growth.
At the same time, the intended use you have planned for your basement is quite different from usual basement usage in terms of loads. The brewing operation alone will release significant amounts of water vapor that cannot simply be vented through a window. This may require specific moisture protection and ventilation measures, approaching industrial-use standards with the corresponding building services complexity. I would not underestimate this. Your project should at least include a ventilation concept according to DIN 1946-6 (now mandatory), which the provider as the planner must demonstrate. Your increased requirements must be taken into account. Neglecting them can lead to serious building physics problems.
If your basement (KG) is below the backflow level (generally street level), all wastewater must be conveyed above this level using a lifting system. This technical requirement should also be considered during the design phase or when choosing the property.
Internal basement insulation is possible using suitable insulation products applied from the inside but is always the least favorable and most complex method in terms of building physics. It should generally be avoided.
Habitable rooms in the basement are considered living spaces under the building regulations of North Rhine-Westphalia and should be applied for as such (see requirements for living spaces: natural lighting, ventilation, heating, sound and thermal insulation, sufficient ceiling height, accessibility, and a second escape route).
If you have such specific ideas about your home's usage, why not consult an architect and have a custom house designed? A developer will rarely accommodate your special requests because it disrupts their cost calculations. Alternatively, they may charge you heavily for the additional planning effort.
To answer your main question: Yes, with a completely uninsulated basement, you will face serious moisture problems with your brewing operation. Sump lime treatments will not resolve this.
To assess the structural and building physics consistency of the proposed constructions, they would need to be described in detail. It is possible that the offer does not fully comply with all requirements of the energy saving ordinance; thermal bridges in the basement (KG) area may be expected, such as "flanking insulation," which can lead to condensation and mold growth.
At the same time, the intended use you have planned for your basement is quite different from usual basement usage in terms of loads. The brewing operation alone will release significant amounts of water vapor that cannot simply be vented through a window. This may require specific moisture protection and ventilation measures, approaching industrial-use standards with the corresponding building services complexity. I would not underestimate this. Your project should at least include a ventilation concept according to DIN 1946-6 (now mandatory), which the provider as the planner must demonstrate. Your increased requirements must be taken into account. Neglecting them can lead to serious building physics problems.
If your basement (KG) is below the backflow level (generally street level), all wastewater must be conveyed above this level using a lifting system. This technical requirement should also be considered during the design phase or when choosing the property.
Internal basement insulation is possible using suitable insulation products applied from the inside but is always the least favorable and most complex method in terms of building physics. It should generally be avoided.
Habitable rooms in the basement are considered living spaces under the building regulations of North Rhine-Westphalia and should be applied for as such (see requirements for living spaces: natural lighting, ventilation, heating, sound and thermal insulation, sufficient ceiling height, accessibility, and a second escape route).
If you have such specific ideas about your home's usage, why not consult an architect and have a custom house designed? A developer will rarely accommodate your special requests because it disrupts their cost calculations. Alternatively, they may charge you heavily for the additional planning effort.
To answer your main question: Yes, with a completely uninsulated basement, you will face serious moisture problems with your brewing operation. Sump lime treatments will not resolve this.
Hello,
the idea of having a house designed by an architect is very good. However, I doubt I will be able to convince my partner, since plots in the area we prefer are very rare, and we were lucky to get a top plot for the building project.
After reading your explanation, I’m starting to feel it might actually be cheaper to relocate the brewery into a garden shed. Of course, electricity, water, and sewage connections would need to be installed there in a rather complex way. But from what I’ve gathered in this discussion, that still seems to be more cost-effective. I’m not sure, though, if there would be any regulatory issues with this, especially regarding running electrical and water lines underground.
Basically, I would still prefer to have it in the basement.
A sump pit with a lifting station is planned for the basement room, by the way. Regarding the steam, I had imagined venting it directly through the basement window using a steam exhaust system—like a pipe with a fan, similar to a kitchen extractor hood.
Since the home cinema will only be used occasionally, should I expect any problems if the basement walls are at least insulated with perimeter insulation?
Best regards
Ricard0
the idea of having a house designed by an architect is very good. However, I doubt I will be able to convince my partner, since plots in the area we prefer are very rare, and we were lucky to get a top plot for the building project.
After reading your explanation, I’m starting to feel it might actually be cheaper to relocate the brewery into a garden shed. Of course, electricity, water, and sewage connections would need to be installed there in a rather complex way. But from what I’ve gathered in this discussion, that still seems to be more cost-effective. I’m not sure, though, if there would be any regulatory issues with this, especially regarding running electrical and water lines underground.
Basically, I would still prefer to have it in the basement.
A sump pit with a lifting station is planned for the basement room, by the way. Regarding the steam, I had imagined venting it directly through the basement window using a steam exhaust system—like a pipe with a fan, similar to a kitchen extractor hood.
Since the home cinema will only be used occasionally, should I expect any problems if the basement walls are at least insulated with perimeter insulation?
Best regards
Ricard0
In your position, I would first have a professional with technical expertise thoroughly analyze the emissions produced by your brewing operation (steam, odors, wastewater, waste) and determine whether these are permitted in what is likely a purely residential area according to building regulations (building permit / planning permission). Blowing brewery fumes through the basement window may not be well received by future neighbors. You might need to vent the exhaust through the roof, but with this setup, you would likely be close to a commercial use, which is probably not allowed in a purely residential zone.
The garden shed as a brewing room also needs to be realistically evaluated. I had a similar case here in the Voreifel region where a retired chef built a thriving catering business in his home, located in a purely residential area. At some point, he moved the kitchen from the basement to an upgraded professional garden shed—partly to simplify the logistical challenges (material transport / basement stairs / deliveries). However, the immediate neighbors were disturbed by the strong kitchen and frying odors and reported the situation to the building authority. The matter was only amicably (and somewhat unofficially) resolved due to good personal relationships and further technical improvements. However, it can also turn out differently.
The garden shed as a brewing room also needs to be realistically evaluated. I had a similar case here in the Voreifel region where a retired chef built a thriving catering business in his home, located in a purely residential area. At some point, he moved the kitchen from the basement to an upgraded professional garden shed—partly to simplify the logistical challenges (material transport / basement stairs / deliveries). However, the immediate neighbors were disturbed by the strong kitchen and frying odors and reported the situation to the building authority. The matter was only amicably (and somewhat unofficially) resolved due to good personal relationships and further technical improvements. However, it can also turn out differently.
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