Hello,
we have the opportunity to buy a nice plot of land from the municipality, but it can only be developed with a semi-detached house. The development plan allows a ridge height of 6.50m (21 ft 4 in), a facade height of 11.00m (36 ft 1 in), and two full stories plus a roof (either gable or shed roof permitted). Our side will face southeast, with the west wall adjacent to the neighbor.
The building partner we have to coordinate with (heights and roof pitch must be the same) can only build relatively narrow and is currently planning a house 7.25m (23 ft 9 in) wide and 9.50m (31 ft 2 in) deep, so our separating wall would be 9.50m (31 ft 2 in) long. To reach around 140-150 m² (1500-1615 sq ft) of living space, the current plan includes two full stories plus an attic (with knee wall about 0.5m (20 in), roof pitch 30°) and a usable basement. This results in a relatively tall building overall (ridge height 6.50m (21 ft 4 in), facade height approx. 10.50m (34 ft 5 in)). His latest offer through a developer (solid construction, KfW70 energy standard) is 265,000 € including incidental costs. Is this realistic? The cost of the land is not included; this concerns only the house itself.
We are currently planning to have the house built by a local general contractor (GC), whose proposal was to handle planning, tendering, and construction management, but to choose the tradespeople together with us and not offer a fixed total price including all profit and risk surcharges. This could save us around 10%, but the risk would then be on us. We know the consultant quite well through various connections (friends, colleagues), and I believe he is trustworthy.
I find it difficult to make reasonable overall cost estimates and hope to get some help here.
Our plans are as follows:
- Living basement (i.e., within the insulated part of the house)
- Ground floor with large kitchen/dining area (table for 8) and small living room (separable, suitable as a guest room)
- Upper floor with 3 roughly equal-sized rooms (about 15 m² (161 sq ft) each) and a family bathroom
- Attic floor with a studio room
We might consider reducing the building depth on the south side by 1 meter (from 9.50m (31 ft 2 in) to 8.50m (28 ft)) to add a covered walkway in front of the window side, meaning our building would then be only 8.50 m deep, but could extend up to around 10.50 m (34 ft 5 in) wide.
The ground and upper floors together should not significantly exceed 130 m² (1400 sq ft), and they will be finished (painting etc. will be done by us), while basement and attic will remain unfinished at first. We aim for approximately a KfW55 energy standard.
What minimum costs should be expected with the following specifications:
- Basement (slab plus prefabricated concrete basement plus basement ceiling), external insulation and insulation under the slab
- Solid structural shell (e.g., 24 cm (9.5 in) Poroton blocks over two full stories, footprint approximately 10 x 8.50 m (33 x 28 ft), concrete ceilings?)
- Gable roof 30°, rafter insulation
- External insulation to achieve KfW55 standard (approximately 25 cm (10 in) external insulation on Poroton blocks, is this sufficient?)
- Passive house windows (triple glazed, PVC) installed in the insulation layer. The south side should have generous glazing to capture solar heat effectively.
- Staircase from basement to attic
- Lightning protection (since we would be the tallest building on the hill)
The fittings do not need to be high-end; standard quality is sufficient (e.g., tiles and sanitary fixtures). For the flooring on the ground floor, we are considering industrial parquet. Interior walls will be plastered and painted.
- Heating system
This is where it gets complicated, as I have ideas but I am unsure whether they work well together and are cost-effective:
- Mechanical ventilation with heat recovery (I estimate around 11,500 €)
- Ground-source heat exchanger in the supply air stream (around 1,500 €, with DIY installation of piping)
- Solar thermal system with a 1000 l (264 gal) buffer tank (we are 4 people), approximately 5,000 €
- Backup heating by gas boiler or pellet stove (more expensive but avoids gas line installation) plus underfloor heating
Thank you very much for your help!
we have the opportunity to buy a nice plot of land from the municipality, but it can only be developed with a semi-detached house. The development plan allows a ridge height of 6.50m (21 ft 4 in), a facade height of 11.00m (36 ft 1 in), and two full stories plus a roof (either gable or shed roof permitted). Our side will face southeast, with the west wall adjacent to the neighbor.
The building partner we have to coordinate with (heights and roof pitch must be the same) can only build relatively narrow and is currently planning a house 7.25m (23 ft 9 in) wide and 9.50m (31 ft 2 in) deep, so our separating wall would be 9.50m (31 ft 2 in) long. To reach around 140-150 m² (1500-1615 sq ft) of living space, the current plan includes two full stories plus an attic (with knee wall about 0.5m (20 in), roof pitch 30°) and a usable basement. This results in a relatively tall building overall (ridge height 6.50m (21 ft 4 in), facade height approx. 10.50m (34 ft 5 in)). His latest offer through a developer (solid construction, KfW70 energy standard) is 265,000 € including incidental costs. Is this realistic? The cost of the land is not included; this concerns only the house itself.
We are currently planning to have the house built by a local general contractor (GC), whose proposal was to handle planning, tendering, and construction management, but to choose the tradespeople together with us and not offer a fixed total price including all profit and risk surcharges. This could save us around 10%, but the risk would then be on us. We know the consultant quite well through various connections (friends, colleagues), and I believe he is trustworthy.
I find it difficult to make reasonable overall cost estimates and hope to get some help here.
Our plans are as follows:
- Living basement (i.e., within the insulated part of the house)
- Ground floor with large kitchen/dining area (table for 8) and small living room (separable, suitable as a guest room)
- Upper floor with 3 roughly equal-sized rooms (about 15 m² (161 sq ft) each) and a family bathroom
- Attic floor with a studio room
We might consider reducing the building depth on the south side by 1 meter (from 9.50m (31 ft 2 in) to 8.50m (28 ft)) to add a covered walkway in front of the window side, meaning our building would then be only 8.50 m deep, but could extend up to around 10.50 m (34 ft 5 in) wide.
The ground and upper floors together should not significantly exceed 130 m² (1400 sq ft), and they will be finished (painting etc. will be done by us), while basement and attic will remain unfinished at first. We aim for approximately a KfW55 energy standard.
What minimum costs should be expected with the following specifications:
- Basement (slab plus prefabricated concrete basement plus basement ceiling), external insulation and insulation under the slab
- Solid structural shell (e.g., 24 cm (9.5 in) Poroton blocks over two full stories, footprint approximately 10 x 8.50 m (33 x 28 ft), concrete ceilings?)
- Gable roof 30°, rafter insulation
- External insulation to achieve KfW55 standard (approximately 25 cm (10 in) external insulation on Poroton blocks, is this sufficient?)
- Passive house windows (triple glazed, PVC) installed in the insulation layer. The south side should have generous glazing to capture solar heat effectively.
- Staircase from basement to attic
- Lightning protection (since we would be the tallest building on the hill)
The fittings do not need to be high-end; standard quality is sufficient (e.g., tiles and sanitary fixtures). For the flooring on the ground floor, we are considering industrial parquet. Interior walls will be plastered and painted.
- Heating system
This is where it gets complicated, as I have ideas but I am unsure whether they work well together and are cost-effective:
- Mechanical ventilation with heat recovery (I estimate around 11,500 €)
- Ground-source heat exchanger in the supply air stream (around 1,500 €, with DIY installation of piping)
- Solar thermal system with a 1000 l (264 gal) buffer tank (we are 4 people), approximately 5,000 €
- Backup heating by gas boiler or pellet stove (more expensive but avoids gas line installation) plus underfloor heating
Thank you very much for your help!
B
Bauexperte2 Oct 2012 11:26Hello,
At first glance, this all sounds reasonable; the price and the note about possible additional costs regarding KfW 70 are fine.
In my opinion, you should quickly dismiss this figure; typical incidental building costs—excluding additional foundation costs due to difficult soil conditions—are usually in the range of €35,000–40,000 (thousand euros) without painting, flooring, landscaping, garage, or reserves for extras.
Take a look here:
https://www.hausbau-forum.de/ratgeber/bauherrenhilfe.422/bauherrenhilfe-vor-vertragsabschluss.424/bausumme.662/#Baunebenkosten%20und%20Grunderwerbsteuer
Euro will surely have something to say about this; in my opinion, you should definitely install a controlled mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery considering the current airtight construction methods.
As the basis of the offer: yes. Further measures—if necessary—will only be determined after precise calculations; the orientation of the plot in relation to the sun also plays a role. Your supplier has already pointed that out in the offer.
If the scope of services does not include any major flaws and appropriate protections for you as the builder are included, the costs for the semi-detached house are realistic. I have already addressed the topic of incidental building costs.
Regarding a discount on the purchase price, you should not expect much. If your supplier wants to accommodate you, it is more likely to be through "perks" in terms of better fittings/options ... but do not expect any significant concessions!
Kind regards
Bluestar schrieb:
...
Price: €249,000 according to the scope of services (which I unfortunately only have as a printed document, not electronically)
...
We now have the following extensions/changes in the offer:
Upgrade to KfW 70 standard:
1. Heating system
...
2. Additional insulation:
As a note, it states that based on their experience this will achieve the KfW 70 energy standard, but proof would still need to be provided.
At first glance, this all sounds reasonable; the price and the note about possible additional costs regarding KfW 70 are fine.
Bluestar schrieb:
Incidental building costs (surveyor fees, permits and inspections, connection fees, earthworks) are estimated at around €19,000
Garage and garden work are not included and will be done as self-performed work.
In my opinion, you should quickly dismiss this figure; typical incidental building costs—excluding additional foundation costs due to difficult soil conditions—are usually in the range of €35,000–40,000 (thousand euros) without painting, flooring, landscaping, garage, or reserves for extras.
Take a look here:
https://www.hausbau-forum.de/ratgeber/bauherrenhilfe.422/bauherrenhilfe-vor-vertragsabschluss.424/bausumme.662/#Baunebenkosten%20und%20Grunderwerbsteuer
Bluestar schrieb:
I now have a lot of questions:
1. Heating technology – is it practical? How to ideally integrate with a controlled mechanical ventilation system (costs)?
Euro will surely have something to say about this; in my opinion, you should definitely install a controlled mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery considering the current airtight construction methods.
Bluestar schrieb:
2. Insulation and KfW 70 – realistic?
As the basis of the offer: yes. Further measures—if necessary—will only be determined after precise calculations; the orientation of the plot in relation to the sun also plays a role. Your supplier has already pointed that out in the offer.
Bluestar schrieb:
3. Are overall costs realistic, or can/could anything still be done?
If the scope of services does not include any major flaws and appropriate protections for you as the builder are included, the costs for the semi-detached house are realistic. I have already addressed the topic of incidental building costs.
Regarding a discount on the purchase price, you should not expect much. If your supplier wants to accommodate you, it is more likely to be through "perks" in terms of better fittings/options ... but do not expect any significant concessions!
Kind regards
Hello,
maybe €uro can still write something here, a few more details about the desired/planned technology:
According to the construction specifications, a gas boiler with solar support is installed. I have now requested some additional quotes from the developer:
"Item 1.2: Since the attic was not offered as finished living space, the insulation is laid on the attic floor and will later be moved under the rafters during the finishing process. This can be done by you or us.
The sizing of the heat pump will be determined by the specialist planner when the exact heating demand of the house is calculated.
1. Price for underfloor heating with towel radiator instead of radiator heating
Additional cost: 6,380.00 € (approx. $6,380)
Accordingly, the heat pump including construction work costs compared to the gas heating with domestic hot water solar system according to the construction specifications
Additional cost: 7,490.00 € (approx. $7,490)
2. Underfloor heating manifold with cabinet as a provision for later attic finishing
Additional cost: 490.00 € (approx. $490)
3. Eff70-Option 1: Gas condensing boiler with heating-supported solar system, underfloor heating and ventilation system with heat recovery
instead of gas heating with domestic hot water solar system according to the construction specifications 10/09
Additional cost: 17,990.00 € (approx. $17,990)
4. Eff70-Option 2: Air source heat pump with underfloor heating and controlled room ventilation as a combined unit, manufacturer Stiebel Eltron, Lyp LWZ 403-SOL (without solar system)
instead of gas heating with domestic hot water solar system according to the construction specifications
Additional cost: 21,150.00 € (approx. $21,150)
"
What currently confuses me is the wording “domestic hot water solar system” and “heating support”, especially point 2. I assume that even with the ventilation system the solar system heats the domestic hot water and not just the heating; otherwise, the heating would have to run even in summer despite the solar collector...
How do the prices look? Are they realistic or is the developer adding a significant markup?
(Taking point 4 as an example: 21,150 € (approx. $21,150), of which 6,380 € (approx. $6,380) is for underfloor heating, leaves 14,770 € (approx. $14,770) for the controlled ventilation with heat recovery/air source heat pump combined unit and installation, while the gas-solar system is omitted and its price should therefore be credited.)
Thank you very much
maybe €uro can still write something here, a few more details about the desired/planned technology:
According to the construction specifications, a gas boiler with solar support is installed. I have now requested some additional quotes from the developer:
"Item 1.2: Since the attic was not offered as finished living space, the insulation is laid on the attic floor and will later be moved under the rafters during the finishing process. This can be done by you or us.
The sizing of the heat pump will be determined by the specialist planner when the exact heating demand of the house is calculated.
1. Price for underfloor heating with towel radiator instead of radiator heating
Additional cost: 6,380.00 € (approx. $6,380)
Accordingly, the heat pump including construction work costs compared to the gas heating with domestic hot water solar system according to the construction specifications
Additional cost: 7,490.00 € (approx. $7,490)
2. Underfloor heating manifold with cabinet as a provision for later attic finishing
Additional cost: 490.00 € (approx. $490)
3. Eff70-Option 1: Gas condensing boiler with heating-supported solar system, underfloor heating and ventilation system with heat recovery
instead of gas heating with domestic hot water solar system according to the construction specifications 10/09
Additional cost: 17,990.00 € (approx. $17,990)
4. Eff70-Option 2: Air source heat pump with underfloor heating and controlled room ventilation as a combined unit, manufacturer Stiebel Eltron, Lyp LWZ 403-SOL (without solar system)
instead of gas heating with domestic hot water solar system according to the construction specifications
Additional cost: 21,150.00 € (approx. $21,150)
"
What currently confuses me is the wording “domestic hot water solar system” and “heating support”, especially point 2. I assume that even with the ventilation system the solar system heats the domestic hot water and not just the heating; otherwise, the heating would have to run even in summer despite the solar collector...
How do the prices look? Are they realistic or is the developer adding a significant markup?
(Taking point 4 as an example: 21,150 € (approx. $21,150), of which 6,380 € (approx. $6,380) is for underfloor heating, leaves 14,770 € (approx. $14,770) for the controlled ventilation with heat recovery/air source heat pump combined unit and installation, while the gas-solar system is omitted and its price should therefore be credited.)
Thank you very much
I’m not a professional, but I can only share what was explained to us: The Stiebel Eltron system with solar panels costs around 20,000 euros. The LWZ 403 - SOL is the version with solar, while the one without solar operation is the 403. So, either go for the one without solar (it’s better to install photovoltaic panels on the roof for solar) or choose the 403-SOL with solar panels—otherwise, it doesn’t really make sense, right?
If you take the 15,000 euros from your calculation, plus 4,000 euros for the gas condensing boiler, plus 3,000 euros in lower connection fees, minus 2,000 to 4,000 euros for the additional ventilation ducts, solar piping, etc., the price seems quite about right.
If you take the 15,000 euros from your calculation, plus 4,000 euros for the gas condensing boiler, plus 3,000 euros in lower connection fees, minus 2,000 to 4,000 euros for the additional ventilation ducts, solar piping, etc., the price seems quite about right.
Hello,
I will save on the gas connection fees, but these are part of the additional construction costs, not included in the developer’s price. Also, the system is offered without solar panels. According to Stiebel’s website, the unit is prepared for solar integration; I cannot find an LWZ 403 model without this preparation.
Therefore, the calculation doesn’t quite add up from my perspective.
I will save on the gas connection fees, but these are part of the additional construction costs, not included in the developer’s price. Also, the system is offered without solar panels. According to Stiebel’s website, the unit is prepared for solar integration; I cannot find an LWZ 403 model without this preparation.
Therefore, the calculation doesn’t quite add up from my perspective.
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