Hello everyone,
I am finally planning to build our own house with my family. I don’t want to do without a smart system and have already done some research.
Loxone is basically off the table for me because it mainly relies on its proprietary system and products.
Of course, I have repeatedly come back to KNX (as here in the forum as well). However, I am not entirely happy with it because I don’t want to have to call a programmer every time I want to make a change; I also don’t really want to buy the ETS license. Additionally, I want to integrate and network fingerprint scanners, Sonos, and a heat pump, but I haven’t fully figured out how to do this with KNX.
The house basically has two floors with an open-plan kitchen/living area, entrance hall, utility room, bathrooms, children’s rooms, bedroom, garden, and so on.
The following systems should be connected:
- Lighting (some dimmable)
- External blinds / weather station
- Underfloor heating
- Heat pump
- Music system (Sonos)
- Fingerprint access
- Video intercom
- Some switched power outlets
- Photovoltaic system
Since I am technically fairly knowledgeable, I want to be able to manage, adjust, and optimize my system myself in the end.
Does anyone have good input here? Or already experience with Loxone, KNX, or others?
Thanks and best regards,
Stefan
I am finally planning to build our own house with my family. I don’t want to do without a smart system and have already done some research.
Loxone is basically off the table for me because it mainly relies on its proprietary system and products.
Of course, I have repeatedly come back to KNX (as here in the forum as well). However, I am not entirely happy with it because I don’t want to have to call a programmer every time I want to make a change; I also don’t really want to buy the ETS license. Additionally, I want to integrate and network fingerprint scanners, Sonos, and a heat pump, but I haven’t fully figured out how to do this with KNX.
The house basically has two floors with an open-plan kitchen/living area, entrance hall, utility room, bathrooms, children’s rooms, bedroom, garden, and so on.
The following systems should be connected:
- Lighting (some dimmable)
- External blinds / weather station
- Underfloor heating
- Heat pump
- Music system (Sonos)
- Fingerprint access
- Video intercom
- Some switched power outlets
- Photovoltaic system
Since I am technically fairly knowledgeable, I want to be able to manage, adjust, and optimize my system myself in the end.
Does anyone have good input here? Or already experience with Loxone, KNX, or others?
Thanks and best regards,
Stefan
Sorry, but how is this intuitive when I have, besides 46 (!) push buttons with 11 room controllers and 2 touch panels, also 2 other control systems?
Not to mention controlling via smartphone.
What are the push buttons for? So that you can operate the blinds in every room? That’s exactly what a controller is for.
Or are they for the lighting? That should be handled by occupancy sensors.
Motion sensors are not unique to KNX, but they make the system much more intuitive.
A brief insight into our house:
We have about 190m² (2050 sq ft) with 11 room controllers (MDT glass push buttons 2 Smart) plus the Gira X1 as the logic engine and smartphone visualization.
There is an occupancy sensor in virtually every room.
Blinds go up and down automatically in the morning and evening, and shades adjust automatically during the day. In the parents’ area, the curtains only close in the evening and open in the morning after pressing a button in the bathroom.
When the TV is turned on, the bus system decides, depending on the brightness and position of the blinds, whether a command is necessary to close them. At the same time, the subwoofer is powered on and the occupancy sensor for the lighting is locked. The Sonos in the kitchen is also muted.
When the TV is turned off, the curtains go up if it is daytime. If automatic shading is required, that option is activated instead. If it is dark outside, the curtains remain closed.
If a window or door is opened, the blinds move to the desired position for ventilation.
For windows with Venetian blinds, only the slats are adjusted; for doors, the blind goes up so you can get out. Unless the door is tilted open—in that case, only the slats are adjusted. This works with MDT blind actuators out of the box without additional logic, but window contacts are necessary. For tilt/open detection on doors, two contacts per door have been installed.
Regarding the lighting: In every room there is an occupancy sensor that controls the lights automatically. Exceptions include the dining table light or the mirror cabinet in the bathroom. Between 9 PM and 6 AM, areas with dimmable lighting turn on and off only at a low level.
Lights turn off when there is no presence detected, including manually switched lamps.
The occupancy sensor in the guest toilet switches the light and starts soft background music via the Sonos. The roller shutter operates as described above, with no manual control needed.
Come to think of it, we regularly use only about 5 of the 11 push buttons (2 next to the bed in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and office).
The rest are installed, provide temperature data for heating control, and are mostly unnecessary. Adding children to the household brings 2 more in the children’s rooms and 1 in the children’s bathroom.
I honestly don’t see why I would need all those extra push buttons.
With KNX, you have to stop thinking in terms of devices and start thinking in functions. Scenes control multiple devices at once, and each device knows what to do.
For example, if you want to cook, one button on the room controller can switch the lighting, start the music, power any standby consumers like the range hood, and increase ventilation slightly.
There are no limits to the possibilities here; the only commonality with conventional wiring is that you have sockets and lights powered with electricity.
Of course, you can have it built this way, but I think it’s a waste of money and would find it a shame to spend so much and not use the capabilities.
The advantages of KNX hardly come into play here.
Not to mention controlling via smartphone.
What are the push buttons for? So that you can operate the blinds in every room? That’s exactly what a controller is for.
Or are they for the lighting? That should be handled by occupancy sensors.
Motion sensors are not unique to KNX, but they make the system much more intuitive.
A brief insight into our house:
We have about 190m² (2050 sq ft) with 11 room controllers (MDT glass push buttons 2 Smart) plus the Gira X1 as the logic engine and smartphone visualization.
There is an occupancy sensor in virtually every room.
Blinds go up and down automatically in the morning and evening, and shades adjust automatically during the day. In the parents’ area, the curtains only close in the evening and open in the morning after pressing a button in the bathroom.
When the TV is turned on, the bus system decides, depending on the brightness and position of the blinds, whether a command is necessary to close them. At the same time, the subwoofer is powered on and the occupancy sensor for the lighting is locked. The Sonos in the kitchen is also muted.
When the TV is turned off, the curtains go up if it is daytime. If automatic shading is required, that option is activated instead. If it is dark outside, the curtains remain closed.
If a window or door is opened, the blinds move to the desired position for ventilation.
For windows with Venetian blinds, only the slats are adjusted; for doors, the blind goes up so you can get out. Unless the door is tilted open—in that case, only the slats are adjusted. This works with MDT blind actuators out of the box without additional logic, but window contacts are necessary. For tilt/open detection on doors, two contacts per door have been installed.
Regarding the lighting: In every room there is an occupancy sensor that controls the lights automatically. Exceptions include the dining table light or the mirror cabinet in the bathroom. Between 9 PM and 6 AM, areas with dimmable lighting turn on and off only at a low level.
Lights turn off when there is no presence detected, including manually switched lamps.
The occupancy sensor in the guest toilet switches the light and starts soft background music via the Sonos. The roller shutter operates as described above, with no manual control needed.
Come to think of it, we regularly use only about 5 of the 11 push buttons (2 next to the bed in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and office).
The rest are installed, provide temperature data for heating control, and are mostly unnecessary. Adding children to the household brings 2 more in the children’s rooms and 1 in the children’s bathroom.
I honestly don’t see why I would need all those extra push buttons.
With KNX, you have to stop thinking in terms of devices and start thinking in functions. Scenes control multiple devices at once, and each device knows what to do.
For example, if you want to cook, one button on the room controller can switch the lighting, start the music, power any standby consumers like the range hood, and increase ventilation slightly.
There are no limits to the possibilities here; the only commonality with conventional wiring is that you have sockets and lights powered with electricity.
Of course, you can have it built this way, but I think it’s a waste of money and would find it a shame to spend so much and not use the capabilities.
The advantages of KNX hardly come into play here.
Yes, there is a lot that can be reduced here. This is once again an example of why KNX is considered expensive. Simply because much more is planned and installed than necessary, which then does not become smart or intuitive but rather requires as many manual operations as possible. This is completely unnecessary and out of place in an intelligent building. I would change a lot about the offer.
In contrast, important elements such as presence detectors and window contacts are practically neglected.
In contrast, important elements such as presence detectors and window contacts are practically neglected.
Mycraft schrieb:
Yes, there is definitely room for reduction. This is once again an example of why KNX is considered expensive. Because much more is planned and installed than necessary, which then doesn’t result in a smart or intuitive system but rather requires as many manual interventions as possible. This is completely unnecessary and out of place in an intelligent building. I would change a lot about the offer. Do you have examples?
@matte1987: Thanks for the detailed explanation. I think we’ll review this again tomorrow. The conventional switches were overall more the result of conventional thinking or not letting go.
How do I turn off the lights when I/the children are in bed? How is that controlled via the occupancy sensor?
Just a quick example of our room controller MDT Glastaster Smart:
It has 6 sensor areas, which can operate either as 6 buttons on one level or in 3 levels with 4 buttons each. In the latter mode, the top two buttons are used to switch between the levels.
The 6 buttons are more than enough for a typical room.
At first, I set it up like this:
2 buttons for roller blinds up/down
2 buttons for temperature up/down
2 buttons for switching lighting, etc.
So still a conventional KNX setup.
The heating (underfloor heating) is hardly ever adjusted. If needed, it’s now controlled mainly via the smartphone, where I have all rooms grouped with the setpoint adjustment.
The roller blinds are rarely used, and the lighting is controlled via the power meter anyway.
What remains is the switch on the wall, which is really only needed for scenes.
I don’t mean to offend you—at first, I felt the same. But I would strongly recommend that you thoroughly familiarize yourself with the topic. Otherwise, you might end up buying a pig in a poke and later not even know exactly what you spent all that money on or how to use it properly...
It has 6 sensor areas, which can operate either as 6 buttons on one level or in 3 levels with 4 buttons each. In the latter mode, the top two buttons are used to switch between the levels.
The 6 buttons are more than enough for a typical room.
At first, I set it up like this:
2 buttons for roller blinds up/down
2 buttons for temperature up/down
2 buttons for switching lighting, etc.
So still a conventional KNX setup.
The heating (underfloor heating) is hardly ever adjusted. If needed, it’s now controlled mainly via the smartphone, where I have all rooms grouped with the setpoint adjustment.
The roller blinds are rarely used, and the lighting is controlled via the power meter anyway.
What remains is the switch on the wall, which is really only needed for scenes.
I don’t mean to offend you—at first, I felt the same. But I would strongly recommend that you thoroughly familiarize yourself with the topic. Otherwise, you might end up buying a pig in a poke and later not even know exactly what you spent all that money on or how to use it properly...
matte1987 schrieb:
Just a quick example of our room controller MDT glass touch panel:
It has 6 sensor areas, which can function either as 6 buttons on one level or as 3 levels with 4 buttons each. In the latter case, the top two buttons are used to switch between the levels.
The 6 buttons are more than enough for a standard room.
Initially, I set it up like this:
2 buttons for blinds up/down
2 buttons for temperature up/down
2 buttons for switching lighting, etc.
So, still conventional KNX setup.
The heating (underfloor heating) is hardly ever changed. Now, if needed, it’s controlled mainly via the smartphone, where I have all rooms grouped for setpoint adjustment.
The blinds are rarely used, and the lighting is controlled through the power supply module anyway.
What remains is basically a wall-mounted button mostly used for scenes.
I don’t want to offend you—it was the same for me at first. But I strongly recommend diving deeper into the subject. Otherwise, you might end up buying a pig in a poke and later not even know exactly what you paid for or how to use it... I would personally be overwhelmed with only 6 buttons; that seems way too limited for me.
The basement ceiling will be installed tomorrow, and starting next Monday the cables will be laid inside the ceiling. I don’t think we have much time left...
P.S. The displays simultaneously also function as the doorbell system.
Oh dear, that’s quite late...
I would therefore focus on what is important right now:
- Are you getting a suspended ceiling? I rather doubt it, right? Then you need to decide NOW on the locations for occupancy sensors in the rooms. Since there isn’t time to consider different models and their pros and cons, I would now just stick to some basic rules.
For example, occupancy sensors shouldn’t be able to see through open room doors to avoid false triggers when a door is open.
Whether you install an occupancy sensor there right away or not is up to you. But at least you would have the option to install one. The electrical box can also be plastered over and painted after being measured and marked in the plans, so it won’t be visible at first.
Which concrete boxes you need also depends on which occupancy sensors you want to use. My electrician used simple ceiling switch boxes, which limited my choice of sensors a lot.
I think it would be best to use Kaiser HaloX boxes with a mineral fiber cover, as the holes stay sealed and can then be properly cut out according to the sensor chosen.
However, I don’t want to give an actual recommendation here, as I’m not very familiar with this. @Mycraft might know more about this in advance?
The green bus cable just goes into the box, that’s all.
The same applies for the intended switch locations; only the green cable goes there. So it’s not critical right now whether the box will actually be used later.
If you want to do it that way, you could mark the positions of the occupancy sensors on the floor plans you have in mind and share them here. You’ll probably get feedback on better placement.
The same applies for the positions of the switch clusters.
I would therefore focus on what is important right now:
- Are you getting a suspended ceiling? I rather doubt it, right? Then you need to decide NOW on the locations for occupancy sensors in the rooms. Since there isn’t time to consider different models and their pros and cons, I would now just stick to some basic rules.
For example, occupancy sensors shouldn’t be able to see through open room doors to avoid false triggers when a door is open.
Whether you install an occupancy sensor there right away or not is up to you. But at least you would have the option to install one. The electrical box can also be plastered over and painted after being measured and marked in the plans, so it won’t be visible at first.
Which concrete boxes you need also depends on which occupancy sensors you want to use. My electrician used simple ceiling switch boxes, which limited my choice of sensors a lot.
I think it would be best to use Kaiser HaloX boxes with a mineral fiber cover, as the holes stay sealed and can then be properly cut out according to the sensor chosen.
However, I don’t want to give an actual recommendation here, as I’m not very familiar with this. @Mycraft might know more about this in advance?
The green bus cable just goes into the box, that’s all.
The same applies for the intended switch locations; only the green cable goes there. So it’s not critical right now whether the box will actually be used later.
If you want to do it that way, you could mark the positions of the occupancy sensors on the floor plans you have in mind and share them here. You’ll probably get feedback on better placement.
The same applies for the positions of the switch clusters.