ᐅ Homebuilding Forum – Would You Choose to Buy or Build a House Again?
Created on: 11 Dec 2015 11:09
X
xycrazy
Hello,
we are about to sign the contract with the developer but have started seriously reconsidering whether we should go through with it.
We negotiated for 8 months and were quite sure about it. However, towards the end, some issues arose regarding the contract and other matters, which we managed to resolve.
It now looks like we would be paying a third of our net income to the bank for 22 years. I think we can afford it. But when you are used to paying monthly rent of about €800-900 (divided by 2), this is quite a different level.
With a house, it’s not just the loan payments; there are ongoing maintenance costs as well. From what we’ve read, this is roughly €2-3 per m² (about 0.2-0.3 per sq ft) per month. So that’s another €400-500 per month. And, of course, there is much more work involved too.
Admittedly, this is stressing us out quite a bit, especially my partner. She is worried about the heavy financial burden each month. Is that justified?
We don’t want to live just for the house; we want to go on vacations, avoid problems with children, and so on. As I said, the current situation is manageable, but we wonder if we might be underestimating the costs.
So here’s my question to the community: looking back at everything you know now about loans, maintenance costs, upkeep, and so forth, would you buy or build a house again?
If yes, why? If not, why not? I’m really interested to hear your thoughts! And were there any surprises—positive or negative—that you didn’t expect?
Regards
we are about to sign the contract with the developer but have started seriously reconsidering whether we should go through with it.
We negotiated for 8 months and were quite sure about it. However, towards the end, some issues arose regarding the contract and other matters, which we managed to resolve.
It now looks like we would be paying a third of our net income to the bank for 22 years. I think we can afford it. But when you are used to paying monthly rent of about €800-900 (divided by 2), this is quite a different level.
With a house, it’s not just the loan payments; there are ongoing maintenance costs as well. From what we’ve read, this is roughly €2-3 per m² (about 0.2-0.3 per sq ft) per month. So that’s another €400-500 per month. And, of course, there is much more work involved too.
Admittedly, this is stressing us out quite a bit, especially my partner. She is worried about the heavy financial burden each month. Is that justified?
We don’t want to live just for the house; we want to go on vacations, avoid problems with children, and so on. As I said, the current situation is manageable, but we wonder if we might be underestimating the costs.
So here’s my question to the community: looking back at everything you know now about loans, maintenance costs, upkeep, and so forth, would you buy or build a house again?
If yes, why? If not, why not? I’m really interested to hear your thoughts! And were there any surprises—positive or negative—that you didn’t expect?
Regards
@Bauexperte: It’s not that I don’t understand your opinion. But I want to point out this: try today, as a regular customer (a layperson) in this field, to get credible, honest advice without a) feeling like you’re asking for too much because you don’t want a cookie-cutter house, or b) feeling pressured to sign immediately. We once had a conversation where the MANAGING DIRECTOR of this quite regionally well-known company said in the initial meeting: “70% sign with me during the first meeting, 30% during the second meeting, and those who don’t sign by then are out of luck. Honestly, I really don’t want young customers like you. I’d rather renovate old buildings for retirees—they don’t check prices online beforehand, they just pay.” That was definitely an extreme example, but I’m not generalizing when I say we had this experience in EVERY meeting. And why? Because they don’t need us as customers... business is booming anyway... either we didn’t receive offers, or we had meetings completely unprepared, or the plans discussed looked totally different, or they showed us standard house models with comments like “I like this better; don’t you want to buy that instead? It’s much better than a custom design,” and so on...
I’m sure (I hope) there are still honest consultants who truly focus on their clients and not just profit. But neither we nor our future neighbors have ever met any. Our experience across the board has sadly been that, whether prefab or solid construction, whether a small firm or a large company... if you want to buy a house as a layperson, you’re lost. No wonder there are so many reports of construction defects... when I see what some contracts contain... someone without any expertise who signs them in good faith, relying on TRUST in the consultant, is mercilessly doomed. Now, one might say: yes, contracts need to be reviewed. That’s exactly what we did. And what came out? We were always told they were super transparent and honest, with no fine print, totally focused on transparency and honesty. After the review, we had to sit down because we didn’t expect what was found. Easily 10 clauses that courts have declared invalid or that have been legally challenged. Advance payment terms, limitation of warranty, no right to cancel, rules about arbitration experts, just to name a few. When we confronted them asking for changes, a storm of indignation broke out, and the once friendly, honest building partner turned into a (sorry) jerk!
If we hadn’t spent two years deeply researching this topic, we wouldn’t have been able to stand on equal footing with anyone. And that would have been a complete disaster.
So yes, there are definitely really bad customers who just exploit you. They exist everywhere. They profit from your knowledge and move on. But honestly... as a layperson, you basically have no choice but to learn step by step from meeting to meeting. Only we were fully prepared here. We were deeply informed, initially had a great relationship (the buddy phase), and the longer the talks went on, the more trust got destroyed. Many promises were made to us that were not kept. We were told someone would be on vacation for one week, but it turned out to be three. Since October, we have been urging to finalize and sign, then formally requested in writing to complete everything by the end of November because the bank could no longer guarantee the interest rate, which was completely ignored when they didn’t respond for eight days and we were forced to break off negotiations. Then WE swallowed our pride and called, saying it would be a shame to part ways so close to the finish, met again, brought cake as a peace offering, continued negotiating, and in the end, we were blamed for wanting everything at the last minute and accused of having a wrong gut feeling. I wonder: where is the self-reflection? Welcome to the German service desert, here is your home!
I’m sure (I hope) there are still honest consultants who truly focus on their clients and not just profit. But neither we nor our future neighbors have ever met any. Our experience across the board has sadly been that, whether prefab or solid construction, whether a small firm or a large company... if you want to buy a house as a layperson, you’re lost. No wonder there are so many reports of construction defects... when I see what some contracts contain... someone without any expertise who signs them in good faith, relying on TRUST in the consultant, is mercilessly doomed. Now, one might say: yes, contracts need to be reviewed. That’s exactly what we did. And what came out? We were always told they were super transparent and honest, with no fine print, totally focused on transparency and honesty. After the review, we had to sit down because we didn’t expect what was found. Easily 10 clauses that courts have declared invalid or that have been legally challenged. Advance payment terms, limitation of warranty, no right to cancel, rules about arbitration experts, just to name a few. When we confronted them asking for changes, a storm of indignation broke out, and the once friendly, honest building partner turned into a (sorry) jerk!
If we hadn’t spent two years deeply researching this topic, we wouldn’t have been able to stand on equal footing with anyone. And that would have been a complete disaster.
So yes, there are definitely really bad customers who just exploit you. They exist everywhere. They profit from your knowledge and move on. But honestly... as a layperson, you basically have no choice but to learn step by step from meeting to meeting. Only we were fully prepared here. We were deeply informed, initially had a great relationship (the buddy phase), and the longer the talks went on, the more trust got destroyed. Many promises were made to us that were not kept. We were told someone would be on vacation for one week, but it turned out to be three. Since October, we have been urging to finalize and sign, then formally requested in writing to complete everything by the end of November because the bank could no longer guarantee the interest rate, which was completely ignored when they didn’t respond for eight days and we were forced to break off negotiations. Then WE swallowed our pride and called, saying it would be a shame to part ways so close to the finish, met again, brought cake as a peace offering, continued negotiating, and in the end, we were blamed for wanting everything at the last minute and accused of having a wrong gut feeling. I wonder: where is the self-reflection? Welcome to the German service desert, here is your home!
sirhc schrieb:
I think this highlights the problem I recently noticed.
You want a transparent offer to have (cost) certainty before making the biggest investment of your life. This means a lot of upfront work for the provider, often resulting in no contract being signed. It’s understandable that motivation for this is low. But without the provider’s effort, I personally wouldn’t even reach the point where I can say yes or no.THIS is exactly where we also failed. In the end, it was like a barter... removing a window here, but adding a ventilation unit there (which suddenly turned out to be necessary for KfW 70). Removing a 300cm x 90cm (118in x 35in) window, but adding a 300cm x 232cm (118in x 91in) window instead = €2,300 additional cost. When you then ask: what is this made up of, you get dirty looks and accusations, as if we think we’re being ripped off. Sorry, this is not professional. If I want my clients to sign, I need to give them a good feeling and cannot insult them (which sometimes happened). And then be annoyed if the gut feeling in the end no longer matches the signature.
In hindsight, I would choose to buy and renovate a house again, and I am quite sure that I will do it once more.
In my opinion, it is difficult to judge whether the right decision was made here. If the general contractor cannot clearly explain contract terms or changes, that is certainly not good. However, I find it hard to understand an 8-month decision-making process failing over €10,000 (approximately $11,000 USD). With your 22-year financing, that corresponds to roughly an additional €40 (about $45 USD) per month or about one extra year on the loan term. To let the construction project fail because of this sounds a bit odd to me; in that case, I would probably have ended negotiations earlier.
Best regards,
Dirk Grafe
In my opinion, it is difficult to judge whether the right decision was made here. If the general contractor cannot clearly explain contract terms or changes, that is certainly not good. However, I find it hard to understand an 8-month decision-making process failing over €10,000 (approximately $11,000 USD). With your 22-year financing, that corresponds to roughly an additional €40 (about $45 USD) per month or about one extra year on the loan term. To let the construction project fail because of this sounds a bit odd to me; in that case, I would probably have ended negotiations earlier.
Best regards,
Dirk Grafe
B
Bauexperte15 Dec 2015 12:40Hello,
What I criticize is the lack of respect and honest communication. If everyone starts on the same level, your instinct reacts without having to put in two years of prior effort. Also not for the first time I say: if your gut says “No,” politely say thank you and move on.
Anyway—I wish you the best of luck with your next attempt and a better hand in choosing your temporary partners. Just please don’t lump all salespeople or providers together; across the country there are many good to very good ones, as I know from accompanying advice. They just don’t appear spectacularly in forums or the press.
Best regards, Bauexperte
xycrazy schrieb:Politely say thank you and leave.
@Bauexperte
But I want to point out: try today as a regular customer (layperson) in this field to get a credible, honest consultation without, a) feeling like you have too many demands because you don’t want a cookie-cutter house
xycrazy schrieb:Write it off as a lesson, say thank you, and leave.
b) not signing immediately.
xycrazy schrieb:So why did you listen to the end?
We once had a conversation where the MANAGING DIRECTOR of this fairly well-known local company said in the initial meeting: "70% sign with me at the first meeting, 30% at the second, and whoever doesn’t sign by then is out of luck. And anyway ...
xycrazy schrieb:No, the business is not booming everywhere right now; it’s booming among budget providers. Reputable companies receive only moderately more orders; the customer base still lacked volume nationwide until the end of Q3. The ongoing housing situation caused by refugee flows has tied up many craftspeople for quite some time. That’s why I’m more than curious how your direct trade contracting will develop next year.
And why? Because they don’t need us as customers... the business is booming... either offers were not sent, or we sat together and appointments were totally unprepared, or the discussed plans looked completely different, or we were presented with cookie-cutter homes accompanied by the statement “well, I like this one better, don’t you want to buy this instead, it’s much better than a custom build,” etc...
xycrazy schrieb:Ask yourself objectively why you didn’t research beforehand in forums, read construction diaries, visit new development areas, seek neutral information? Or consult a building advisor?
... if you want to buy a house as a layperson, you’re lost.
xycrazy schrieb:Anyone who believes those reports also believes in Santa Claus.
No wonder so many reports of poor workmanship come up...
xycrazy schrieb:May I ask whom you engaged for the review?
Now one could say: yes, contracts have to be reviewed. That’s exactly what we did.
xycrazy schrieb:That’s why I keep repeating — no, I’m not a preacher — that laypeople should seek professional help and hire experts! Sure, that costs some of the nice-to-haves.
If we hadn’t spent two years seriously studying the subject, we wouldn’t have been able to meet anyone on an equal footing. And that would have been a total disaster.
xycrazy schrieb:Agreed.
But honestly... as a layperson, you basically have no choice but to learn from meeting to meeting.
What I criticize is the lack of respect and honest communication. If everyone starts on the same level, your instinct reacts without having to put in two years of prior effort. Also not for the first time I say: if your gut says “No,” politely say thank you and move on.
xycrazy schrieb:At that point, I would have already said goodbye and definitely not worked toward a contract.
Only we were absolutely construction-ready here. We were deep into the subject, initially had a great relationship (the buddy approach), and the longer the talks went on, the more trust was broken. We were promised many things that were not fulfilled.
xycrazy schrieb:That is your perspective; it may be accurate, but it’s certainly selective and always subjective. Honestly, I’m even tempted to ask about the price shown at the bottom right. You gave that salesperson the feeling a long time ago that he could take advantage of you. So why do you expect the impossible and become frustrated when he finally reveals his true nature (which you probably sensed long before)?
Then WE swallowed our pride and called to say it would be a shame to part ways so close to the finish, met again, brought cake as a peace offering, continued negotiations, and in the end, we were accused of wanting everything at the last minute and blamed because our gut feeling no longer matched. I wonder where the self-reflection is. Service desert Germany, here’s your home!
Anyway—I wish you the best of luck with your next attempt and a better hand in choosing your temporary partners. Just please don’t lump all salespeople or providers together; across the country there are many good to very good ones, as I know from accompanying advice. They just don’t appear spectacularly in forums or the press.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Dirk Grafe schrieb:
In hindsight, I would buy and renovate a house again and I’m fairly certain I will do it once more.
Whether the right decision was made here is, in my opinion, hard to judge. If the general contractor (GC) cannot clearly explain contract contents or changes, that is obviously not good. However, I can’t really understand an eight-month decision process failing over €10,000. Considering your financing over 22 years, that roughly translates to about €40 per month in additional costs or approximately one extra year of loan term. Letting the construction project fail over that sounds a bit odd to me; I probably would have ended the negotiations earlier in that case.
Regards,
Dirk GrafeYou are right, that’s why it didn’t actually fail because of €10,000. In the end, we were even €30,000 over budget. It was the combination of accusations, a bitter aftertaste, unexplained additional costs, statements that certain things would be covered by the GC (for example, the surveyor, which is actually standard in the construction specifications) but were later pushed onto us, many promises that were never kept, and so on. All this led to a loss of trust along the way. We should have actually ended it much earlier, that’s clear. But when your gut feeling (unease) and your head (great interest rates, what are the alternatives) are playing roulette, it’s not that simple. By the end, we were changing our minds almost hourly. So it didn’t fail because of €10,000 but because of the sum of all these issues.
@Bauexperte
First of all, I said there are certainly good consultants out there, but we haven’t come across any.
The subjective perspective you accuse me of is something you yourself can’t deny either.
It doesn’t matter anyway. Everyone has their own view on things, as does the general contractor (GC).
And of course, we could have pulled the plug earlier, which we did... but then we felt it was a shame to have “wasted” 8 months (about 0.7 years) and thought everyone deserves a second chance. We just didn’t expect things to continue like this.
Maybe your situation looks different. But in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria, the construction industry is booming everywhere. That’s just the way it is.
Some told us they have a one-year lead time. And I’m not talking about big companies but serious local providers. You can believe that.
And yes, there are many GCs. But only a few with a reasonably good reputation who also do custom builds. If you follow the chain far enough, you get to the point where you ask yourself: is this really it? Do you just have to go through this due to lack of alternatives? And we reached that point... where we thought, just grit your teeth and push through. But do you sign contracts worth hundreds of thousands of € (euros) like that? I don’t.
Anyone who thinks those “construction botch” TV shows are fictional is welcome to come here... there are several construction ruins from a well-known, former GC. While it’s understandable to be loyal to your own profession, you also have to open your eyes to reality outside.
Just as not all consultants are bad, not all builders are naive expecting miracles!
As for advice, we had the construction service description reviewed by the consumer advice center and the contract checked by a specialist construction law attorney. We also sought advice from the private builders’ association and the home builders’ protection association.
I think it doesn’t get any better than that. And I believe the GC simply didn’t like us being so inconveniently well informed.
He wasn’t dealing with a naive client willing to sign the contract blindly, in good faith and conscience.
From the moment we were presented with the contract and requested to discuss various points, the atmosphere turned extremely frosty.
Those are the ground rules, 500 clients have already signed the same contract, even the public sector (we all know that public clients have their OWN contracts and never sign company forms). Honestly... who would have given up immediately after 7 months of talks and working on plans when they had already spoken to 8 others without getting anywhere near that far? It’s only logical to first try to reach a consensus. But when only frustrating bickering results during about 8 weeks, eventually your gut says no.
And why did I listen to the nonsense about preferring to build with seniors? Because I simply couldn’t avoid that last sentence during the farewell. Can you predict what your conversation partner is going to say next? I can’t.
First of all, I said there are certainly good consultants out there, but we haven’t come across any.
The subjective perspective you accuse me of is something you yourself can’t deny either.
It doesn’t matter anyway. Everyone has their own view on things, as does the general contractor (GC).
And of course, we could have pulled the plug earlier, which we did... but then we felt it was a shame to have “wasted” 8 months (about 0.7 years) and thought everyone deserves a second chance. We just didn’t expect things to continue like this.
Maybe your situation looks different. But in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria, the construction industry is booming everywhere. That’s just the way it is.
Some told us they have a one-year lead time. And I’m not talking about big companies but serious local providers. You can believe that.
And yes, there are many GCs. But only a few with a reasonably good reputation who also do custom builds. If you follow the chain far enough, you get to the point where you ask yourself: is this really it? Do you just have to go through this due to lack of alternatives? And we reached that point... where we thought, just grit your teeth and push through. But do you sign contracts worth hundreds of thousands of € (euros) like that? I don’t.
Anyone who thinks those “construction botch” TV shows are fictional is welcome to come here... there are several construction ruins from a well-known, former GC. While it’s understandable to be loyal to your own profession, you also have to open your eyes to reality outside.
Just as not all consultants are bad, not all builders are naive expecting miracles!
As for advice, we had the construction service description reviewed by the consumer advice center and the contract checked by a specialist construction law attorney. We also sought advice from the private builders’ association and the home builders’ protection association.
I think it doesn’t get any better than that. And I believe the GC simply didn’t like us being so inconveniently well informed.
He wasn’t dealing with a naive client willing to sign the contract blindly, in good faith and conscience.
From the moment we were presented with the contract and requested to discuss various points, the atmosphere turned extremely frosty.
Those are the ground rules, 500 clients have already signed the same contract, even the public sector (we all know that public clients have their OWN contracts and never sign company forms). Honestly... who would have given up immediately after 7 months of talks and working on plans when they had already spoken to 8 others without getting anywhere near that far? It’s only logical to first try to reach a consensus. But when only frustrating bickering results during about 8 weeks, eventually your gut says no.
And why did I listen to the nonsense about preferring to build with seniors? Because I simply couldn’t avoid that last sentence during the farewell. Can you predict what your conversation partner is going to say next? I can’t.
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