ᐅ Railing Guidelines – Head Injury Protection and Climbability
Created on: 15 Feb 2023 13:54
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Fertighaus123
Hello everyone,
Yesterday, we had a crisis meeting with the managing director of our house building company. The situation is getting out of hand, and we are close to involving a lawyer because there are issues where reason no longer helps. One of these issues is the following topic.
The latest development is that we have been contracted to install railings over a gallery between the ground floor and first floor, as well as on the outside balcony. We want these railings to have horizontal bars (rough sketches for reference attached). Now the building company says they won’t make such railings and that we should remove this item from the contract and hire a metalworker instead.
When we asked why, they told us something about entrapment hazards for children, and that the bars cannot be spaced more than 120mm (4.7 inches) apart. Also, they said the rails should not be horizontal because children might climb on them.
I find both reasons quite far-fetched. I know about entrapment hazards from public spaces, but only in a specific range, for example between 89mm (3.5 inches) and 230mm (9 inches); anything above or below is usually considered safe. But this shouldn’t apply to private residential buildings, right? Or does it?
The argument about climbing is also nonsense; dangers are everywhere, so why would railings be more problematic?
One can debate the pros and cons of such railings all day long. I just want to know if any of you are aware that this is actually forbidden, as he claims. Removing the railings from the contract also makes no sense; we would likely only receive a fraction of the credit compared to what such railings actually cost (credits are still pending).
Do you have any advice or are there guidelines for railings that a metalworker would need to follow?
I would really appreciate your feedback.
Best regards
Yesterday, we had a crisis meeting with the managing director of our house building company. The situation is getting out of hand, and we are close to involving a lawyer because there are issues where reason no longer helps. One of these issues is the following topic.
The latest development is that we have been contracted to install railings over a gallery between the ground floor and first floor, as well as on the outside balcony. We want these railings to have horizontal bars (rough sketches for reference attached). Now the building company says they won’t make such railings and that we should remove this item from the contract and hire a metalworker instead.
When we asked why, they told us something about entrapment hazards for children, and that the bars cannot be spaced more than 120mm (4.7 inches) apart. Also, they said the rails should not be horizontal because children might climb on them.
I find both reasons quite far-fetched. I know about entrapment hazards from public spaces, but only in a specific range, for example between 89mm (3.5 inches) and 230mm (9 inches); anything above or below is usually considered safe. But this shouldn’t apply to private residential buildings, right? Or does it?
The argument about climbing is also nonsense; dangers are everywhere, so why would railings be more problematic?
One can debate the pros and cons of such railings all day long. I just want to know if any of you are aware that this is actually forbidden, as he claims. Removing the railings from the contract also makes no sense; we would likely only receive a fraction of the credit compared to what such railings actually cost (credits are still pending).
Do you have any advice or are there guidelines for railings that a metalworker would need to follow?
I would really appreciate your feedback.
Best regards
S
Sunshine38715 Feb 2023 16:24Fertighaus123 schrieb:
Unfortunately, I can no longer edit the post...
Does this then mean that even if sentences 1 and 2 are excluded based on the building classification, sentence 3 still applies and states:
3. For irregular openings, climbing over must not be made easier, and in any direction, openings must not exceed 12 cm (5 inches).
Does this mean that the gaps may not be larger than 12 cm (5 inches) either horizontally or vertically?
So basically in Baden-Württemberg, you are simply out of luck, right? (Assuming you cannot rule out even a single child visiting.) Exactly. Sentences 1 and 2 do not apply to a single-family house, but §5 No. 2 still applies. One does not affect the other. As a builder, I definitely would not install something like that. The liability risk is much too high. Use glass in front or install a different type of railing.
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Fertighaus12315 Feb 2023 16:25Okay, I give up... As I mentioned, there were no children living in the house (not permanently), so we could have omitted the Plexiglas panel you mentioned right away. However, if I have interpreted the state building regulations correctly, that still wouldn’t be allowed 😕.
I’m not sure if the building authority will come back for another inspection, but I have to assume they might.
What about vertical flat steel bars spaced every 120mm (5 inches)? That should be acceptable, right?
I’m not sure if the building authority will come back for another inspection, but I have to assume they might.
What about vertical flat steel bars spaced every 120mm (5 inches)? That should be acceptable, right?
Fertighaus123 schrieb:
Yesterday, we had a crisis meeting with the managing director of our house-building company. Things are really escalating, and we are close to involving a lawyer because there are issues where reason no longer gets us anywhere. One of these issues is the following.
The latest development is that we have commissioned railings above a gallery between the ground floor and the upper floor and also on the outside balcony. We want these railings to have horizontal bars (rough sketches attached for visualization). Now the house-building company says they won’t make such railings and that we should remove this work from the contract and hire a metalworker instead. I am quite surprised by this assessment
KarstenausNRW schrieb:
The clear answer is YES AND NO. It depends on the state and the regional building regulations. and I assume that most metalworkers will also decline this work. You should listen more to reasonable experts!
My impression from your thread history is that of a style-focused prospective homeowner who will end up, crying, in front of a ruin with three lawyers—while if you had aimed just 0.815 percent less for perfection, it could have been a flawless industrial product.
Fertighaus123 schrieb:
I think when we finish building, I’ll write a book: "Pitfalls of Prefabricated Houses"... My alternative suggested title would be: "Pitfalls of Over-Optimizing."
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
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Fertighaus12315 Feb 2023 18:32If only every home builder (who is usually an amateur) were as incredibly knowledgeable as you are. If only everyone had the understanding you have. If only everyone knew every regulation as well as you do... Oh, wait, then a forum like this wouldn’t be necessary anymore.
What you always assume is actually the most interesting part of your posts, but unfortunately, their substance has become thinner and thinner over the years—so thin now that one might wish you would just stop. You must be a very troubled person who has probably been through a lot of bad experiences and now wants to punish everyone internally who dares to pursue their dream, simply because you failed.
I actually feel sorry for you, which is why I will stop attacking you the way you now do in almost every one of your posts to others.
You cause the atmosphere in many threads to turn negative just because you want to share your unnecessary opinion. This forum is actually a really good source of information, and this thread shows a top solution—on just a few pages—for a question that concerns not only us but also home builders throughout Baden-Württemberg. I now know where it stands and understand what it’s about, accept this legislation, and look for an alternative. Period. Why do you have to spread your pointless opinion here again, which is just nonsense and adds nothing to this topic?
If you had sat opposite the hot-tempered person I dealt with yesterday, you would have heard his completely inconsistent arguments on countless issues. He constantly invents things that supposedly wouldn’t work or cause problems, etc. You cannot trust him at all; if we had known that beforehand, we wouldn’t have signed the contract. If he were reliable, he could explain calmly and factually why something doesn’t work and where it can be found in the state building code under paragraph X. But he didn’t do that. So how can I believe what he says if about 10 things he claimed before have already been proven wrong—mostly things he now can’t get at the price he could have gotten one and a half years ago when we signed the contract?
So please just stop the pointless writing and philosophizing when you can’t contribute anything to the topic. As you may have noticed in my other threads, I’ve always tried to ignore you, but you just can’t stop posting comments that create a negative atmosphere. And to go even further, your assumption back in my very first thread:
Maybe you’ll take my moderately well-intended criticism to heart and think about what kind of contributions you’re really making here. Your knowledge base isn’t bad and could help newcomers like me a lot—if you didn’t constantly drive them away from this forum because they no longer dare to ask their questions. That’s what a forum lives on, and “stupid” questions are part of it. It usually doesn’t matter why these questions are asked—though that is interesting—but what matters much more is finding a solution that everyone can understand and use.
Thank you!
And thanks also to everyone who has helped me so far, which you can fortunately see from my likes.
What you always assume is actually the most interesting part of your posts, but unfortunately, their substance has become thinner and thinner over the years—so thin now that one might wish you would just stop. You must be a very troubled person who has probably been through a lot of bad experiences and now wants to punish everyone internally who dares to pursue their dream, simply because you failed.
I actually feel sorry for you, which is why I will stop attacking you the way you now do in almost every one of your posts to others.
You cause the atmosphere in many threads to turn negative just because you want to share your unnecessary opinion. This forum is actually a really good source of information, and this thread shows a top solution—on just a few pages—for a question that concerns not only us but also home builders throughout Baden-Württemberg. I now know where it stands and understand what it’s about, accept this legislation, and look for an alternative. Period. Why do you have to spread your pointless opinion here again, which is just nonsense and adds nothing to this topic?
If you had sat opposite the hot-tempered person I dealt with yesterday, you would have heard his completely inconsistent arguments on countless issues. He constantly invents things that supposedly wouldn’t work or cause problems, etc. You cannot trust him at all; if we had known that beforehand, we wouldn’t have signed the contract. If he were reliable, he could explain calmly and factually why something doesn’t work and where it can be found in the state building code under paragraph X. But he didn’t do that. So how can I believe what he says if about 10 things he claimed before have already been proven wrong—mostly things he now can’t get at the price he could have gotten one and a half years ago when we signed the contract?
So please just stop the pointless writing and philosophizing when you can’t contribute anything to the topic. As you may have noticed in my other threads, I’ve always tried to ignore you, but you just can’t stop posting comments that create a negative atmosphere. And to go even further, your assumption back in my very first thread:
11ant schrieb:was already wrong; I’ve actually known you and this forum for almost two years, but until now, I’d only been reading.
That’s a fantastic idea—checking online at the last minute on the eve of the selection appointment to see if there might be forums for home builders.
Maybe you’ll take my moderately well-intended criticism to heart and think about what kind of contributions you’re really making here. Your knowledge base isn’t bad and could help newcomers like me a lot—if you didn’t constantly drive them away from this forum because they no longer dare to ask their questions. That’s what a forum lives on, and “stupid” questions are part of it. It usually doesn’t matter why these questions are asked—though that is interesting—but what matters much more is finding a solution that everyone can understand and use.
Thank you!
And thanks also to everyone who has helped me so far, which you can fortunately see from my likes.
Fertighaus123 schrieb:
If only every homebuilder (who is usually a layperson) were as incredibly knowledgeable as you are. [...] Maybe you should take my moderately well-intentioned criticism to heart and reflect on what you're really contributing here. Your knowledge base isn’t bad at all and could be very helpful to newcomers like me if you didn’t always scare them away from this forum by making them afraid to ask their questions. I would never write a post with such a high level of frustration as your exemplary ungrateful speech, which is completely unnecessary by the way: I started my final year in this forum two weeks ago – but you don’t have to wait until I leave. Just hover your mouse pointer over my username in any of my posts. A box will appear with the option to “Ignore” – it’s that easy, so you can be spared from my “ever thinning but actually not bad knowledge base” until further notice and don’t have to disturb the other readers with your dramatic protest.
I am – widely known and openly admitted! – a layperson in several hundred areas myself. Twice in the past year, I took breaks from my activity in this forum; the most recent one lasted eight or nine weeks. During that time I was simply not writing but remained a constant reader. Newcomers who might have considered my absence a blessing have at least hidden well. On the other hand, I received several requests to return. By the way, the only people I come down hard on here – admittedly with passion – are planners like “@Gerddieter warns,” basically architects without any quotation marks, if they deliver worse results than mere draftsmen. Newbies of the type “oops, you silly internet, who cares about search functions, I just repost my ‘own’ FAQ and of course expect all clairvoyants to read my mind” also get a piece of my mind (although I am almost a little embarrassed by how many likes those posts receive).
That I am a happy renter will never stop me from wishing others their dream homes. I even guide people there professionally, in case you haven’t noticed. As long as they don’t build in my direct vicinity, they can be McMansion hells, Tuscan-style houses, or gold-chained villas for all I care. My living situation is by no means a “failure,” I am “surrounded” by nice neighbors (no cordless power tools, no leopard print mesh fences, no noisy troublemakers), and the reason I don’t yet plan to buy a home is mainly that I don’t have any grandchildren yet. My location is almost ideal for my job, if you disregard the lack of enough highways crossing the Rhine. But in return, it’s not far to the mountains when I want to go hiking on a Sunday near the tiny village whose proper name I’m not supposed to mention anymore, close to @neo-sciliar’s sky blue Stommel house. So, all is well.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
Fertighaus123 schrieb:
Hello everyone,
Yesterday we had a crisis meeting with the managing director of our home construction company. Things are really starting to get out of hand, and we are close to hiring a lawyer because there are issues where reasonable discussion no longer seems possible. One of these issues is the following topic. ...The topic you mentioned, where apparently the general contractor’s managing director was initially unwilling to follow your reasoning, has now developed to the point that you had to step back from your position. Perhaps this is also the case with some of the other unresolved "disputes"?When I talk to clients (who are usually laypersons in my area of expertise), I also hear some rather unusual ideas and expectations. However, I prefer to communicate with professionals who can understand my proposals. We too reject such unreasonable assignments that only cause trouble for both parties. I find that completely understandable.
Maybe you could try the following: Reach out to the managing director and start with an apology...: "Dear Mr. XXX, I realize I may have been mistaken, and I apologize for that. I thought that..., but now I am informed and you were absolutely right. However, I would kindly ask you to complete this project to our mutual satisfaction, and from now on, I would like to openly and constructively address the remaining points 1., 2., and so on with you. If you are willing, I would be very pleased..."
Good communication makes life so much easier, says someone who only learned that late ;-) – born in 1967