ᐅ City or countryside, new construction or renovation – the challenge of choosing!?
Created on: 2 Aug 2020 16:25
D
dankosos
Hello everyone,
I already started a thread in the financing section to estimate a possible loan range. Now we have roughly outlined that and are considering the options available to us.
Here’s a luxury problem:
We currently own two plots of land with rental properties on them. One is in the middle of the city (a 100 sqm (1,076 sq ft) terraced townhouse with a small garden directly on a main road), and the other about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city (a small detached single-family home, on nearly 1,000 sqm (10,764 sq ft) of land, in a quiet location). Additionally, we have €300,000 (including support from relatives) in cash equity plus around €50,000 set aside as a buffer for unexpected expenses in everyday life or on the houses, and a solid income that comfortably supports a loan of about €500,000 (more details in the financing thread).
We are now considering two options for our own home (goal: around 180 sqm (1,938 sq ft) living space for 2 adults, 2 children, home office, and regular visitors):
Option A) We build the house about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city by expanding, renovating, or starting new. There is no longer a formal development plan there, but the neighborhood is quite mixed, and we are pretty sure we could create something we really like without rush. Another plus: With our equity, we’d only need a comparatively small loan (somewhere between €150,000 and at most €300,000) and would either be debt-free within 10-15 years (in our early/mid-40s) or have a long period of relatively low payments compared to our income. The village is quite sought-after, so we would also likely be able to sell the house well, if needed.
The biggest disadvantage is the location. I don’t work in the nearby city but commute around 250 km (155 miles) per office day, 240 km (149 miles) of that by high-speed train. It’s not a big deal as the train time is working time, and I was already able to work 2, sometimes 3 days from home before COVID, with the city station only 1.5 km (1 mile) away. However, if we moved to the village, the one-way distance to the station would be 8 km (5 miles), and the return trip is quite uphill. It’s certainly doable (I am quite fit cycling and would even welcome a somewhat longer bike ride than at present), especially if I can permanently work three days from home. But in everyday life with kids, it might not be so practical—for example, if my wife can’t leave work, I would easily need 1.5 hours at best to commute. Also, we would lose rental income from here (including terminating a tenancy by a tenant who has lived there since 1975—we aren’t in a hurry, but it just feels unpleasant...) and probably have underestimated the investment required. Therefore…
Option B) We buy an existing property in the city and renovate or expand it. The big, big downside here is the typically inflated and still very competitive property market. It will probably take years to find something, and when you do, you basically have to decide at the first viewing—which is quite stressful for us cautious people. Due to the high purchase price (with additional costs around €550,000 minimum, so a new build is off the table), we would likely have to make many compromises during the renovation based on what I have seen in similar projects.
But we could stay in the city, would only need one car, no monthly passes for the kids, etc.—which is a considerable advantage compared to the loan repayment—and overall, we would probably have more free time since we wouldn’t have to constantly drive the children to sports and other activities.
At the same time, one could argue a third option C): if we choose A, we could sell the property with the house there later and use the proceeds for option B. Then we could probably do everything in the city according to our wishes—and the final situation would be the same: instead of owning two rental homes, we would only have one, but in addition, a valuable house in the city. The only remaining problem would be finding a plot without unpleasant surprises…
Of course, I know this is ultimately our decision to make – but how would you approach it? Has anyone been in the same situation? Neither of us has ever lived in the countryside; what hidden costs might come up there that you wouldn’t have in the city?
I already started a thread in the financing section to estimate a possible loan range. Now we have roughly outlined that and are considering the options available to us.
Here’s a luxury problem:
We currently own two plots of land with rental properties on them. One is in the middle of the city (a 100 sqm (1,076 sq ft) terraced townhouse with a small garden directly on a main road), and the other about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city (a small detached single-family home, on nearly 1,000 sqm (10,764 sq ft) of land, in a quiet location). Additionally, we have €300,000 (including support from relatives) in cash equity plus around €50,000 set aside as a buffer for unexpected expenses in everyday life or on the houses, and a solid income that comfortably supports a loan of about €500,000 (more details in the financing thread).
We are now considering two options for our own home (goal: around 180 sqm (1,938 sq ft) living space for 2 adults, 2 children, home office, and regular visitors):
Option A) We build the house about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city by expanding, renovating, or starting new. There is no longer a formal development plan there, but the neighborhood is quite mixed, and we are pretty sure we could create something we really like without rush. Another plus: With our equity, we’d only need a comparatively small loan (somewhere between €150,000 and at most €300,000) and would either be debt-free within 10-15 years (in our early/mid-40s) or have a long period of relatively low payments compared to our income. The village is quite sought-after, so we would also likely be able to sell the house well, if needed.
The biggest disadvantage is the location. I don’t work in the nearby city but commute around 250 km (155 miles) per office day, 240 km (149 miles) of that by high-speed train. It’s not a big deal as the train time is working time, and I was already able to work 2, sometimes 3 days from home before COVID, with the city station only 1.5 km (1 mile) away. However, if we moved to the village, the one-way distance to the station would be 8 km (5 miles), and the return trip is quite uphill. It’s certainly doable (I am quite fit cycling and would even welcome a somewhat longer bike ride than at present), especially if I can permanently work three days from home. But in everyday life with kids, it might not be so practical—for example, if my wife can’t leave work, I would easily need 1.5 hours at best to commute. Also, we would lose rental income from here (including terminating a tenancy by a tenant who has lived there since 1975—we aren’t in a hurry, but it just feels unpleasant...) and probably have underestimated the investment required. Therefore…
Option B) We buy an existing property in the city and renovate or expand it. The big, big downside here is the typically inflated and still very competitive property market. It will probably take years to find something, and when you do, you basically have to decide at the first viewing—which is quite stressful for us cautious people. Due to the high purchase price (with additional costs around €550,000 minimum, so a new build is off the table), we would likely have to make many compromises during the renovation based on what I have seen in similar projects.
But we could stay in the city, would only need one car, no monthly passes for the kids, etc.—which is a considerable advantage compared to the loan repayment—and overall, we would probably have more free time since we wouldn’t have to constantly drive the children to sports and other activities.
At the same time, one could argue a third option C): if we choose A, we could sell the property with the house there later and use the proceeds for option B. Then we could probably do everything in the city according to our wishes—and the final situation would be the same: instead of owning two rental homes, we would only have one, but in addition, a valuable house in the city. The only remaining problem would be finding a plot without unpleasant surprises…
Of course, I know this is ultimately our decision to make – but how would you approach it? Has anyone been in the same situation? Neither of us has ever lived in the countryside; what hidden costs might come up there that you wouldn’t have in the city?
@Aphrodithe
Land in the city that is affordable for us. I don’t want to live there anymore. I only go to the city once a month for shopping.
In our village, there is a supermarket, discount store, gym, small hardware store for building supplies, stationery shop, pharmacy, gas station, hairdresser, optician, audiologist, banks, bakery, butcher, second-hand store, gardener, and services like nail salon, speech therapy, general practitioners, dentists, library, school with after-school care, and daycare.
In the village, there is a mix of community and tranquility. No violence, no theft, no waiting lists for daycare, short distances—and you can even tell the mayor what you think on Sundays at the village fair.
Land in the city that is affordable for us. I don’t want to live there anymore. I only go to the city once a month for shopping.
In our village, there is a supermarket, discount store, gym, small hardware store for building supplies, stationery shop, pharmacy, gas station, hairdresser, optician, audiologist, banks, bakery, butcher, second-hand store, gardener, and services like nail salon, speech therapy, general practitioners, dentists, library, school with after-school care, and daycare.
In the village, there is a mix of community and tranquility. No violence, no theft, no waiting lists for daycare, short distances—and you can even tell the mayor what you think on Sundays at the village fair.
We are currently moving away from Frankfurt to a nearby town with 10,000 inhabitants. I don’t really have anything against the city, but I don’t need it either. Our wish was for a large plot of land with a detached house and a decent garden. You just don’t get that in a big city. @dankosos How is it for you? Can you actually find a plot in the city that is comparable to one in the countryside? Or is that not important to you?
P
pagoni20203 Aug 2020 17:41haydee schrieb:
Nail salona clear sign that former city dwellers have increasingly moved to rural areas.pagoni2020 schrieb:
a clear sign that former city dwellers have increasingly moved to the countryside.There are hardly any newcomers. Many returnees from the city. Thanks to the Internet, you can stay up to date even in the middle of nowhere.
We really live off the beaten path. 2 hours to Frankfurt, 2 hours to Nuremberg. Erfurt, Würzburg, and Fulda are closer.
Winniefred3 Aug 2020 19:04dankosos schrieb:
Hello everyone.
I already created a thread in the financing category to estimate a possible loan amount. We have now roughly defined it and are considering the options available to us.
Here’s the luxury problem:
We currently own two plots of land with rented properties. One is right in the city (a 100sqm (1,076 sq ft) mid-terraced house with a small plot directly on a main road), the other about 5km (3 miles) outside the city (a small detached single-family home, almost 1,000sqm (10,760 sq ft) plot, quiet location). Additionally, we have €300,000 (about $320,000) in equity in cash (including support from relatives) plus around €50,000 (about $53,000) set aside as a buffer for unforeseen everyday or property expenses, as well as a solid income that allows us to comfortably handle a loan amount of roughly €500,000 ($530,000) (more details in the financing thread).
For our own home (goal: around 180sqm (1,940 sq ft) living space, 2 adults, 2 children, home office, and regular visitors), we have two options in mind:
Option A) Build the house about 5km (3 miles) outside the city, on or expanding the existing plot. There is no current zoning plan, but the neighborhood is quite mixed, and we are fairly confident we could create something we really like without rushing. Another plus: with our equity, we would only need a relatively small loan (somewhere between €150,000 and, at most, €300,000), allowing us to be debt-free in 10–15 years (in our early to mid-40s) or have relatively low monthly payments compared to our income for a longer time. The village is quite popular, so we could sell the house easily if needed.
The big drawback is the location. I don’t work in the nearby city but commute about 250km (155 miles) each office day, 240km (149 miles) by high-speed train (ICE). This isn’t a big issue, as I use the train time to work, and before the pandemic, I was already working 2 to sometimes 3 days remotely per week. The city train station is only 1.5km (1 mile) away. However, if we moved to the village, the one-way distance to the station would increase to 8km (5 miles), and the return trip is quite uphill. This is certainly doable (I’m very fit cycling and would even welcome a somewhat longer bike ride than currently), especially if I can work from home three days a week. But everyday life with kids may not be as convenient — for example, if my wife cannot leave work, I might easily need 1.5 hours just for that trip. Also, we would lose rental income here (including terminating a tenant who has lived there since 1975 — although there’s no pressure, we don’t feel great about it…), and probably, in the end, we would have underestimated the investment needed. Therefore…
Option B) Buy an existing property in the city and remodel or extend it. The major, major drawback here is, as usual, the extremely inflated and highly competitive property market. It will probably take years to find something, and when you do, you basically have to commit at the first viewing — which makes us both, as cautious people, very uneasy. Because of the high purchase price (including additional costs, at least €550,000, so building new is off the table), we would probably have to make many compromises during renovation if I look at similar projects.
But we could stay in the city, only need one car, no need for monthly transport passes for the kids, etc. — which, balancing against the mortgage payments, shouldn’t be underestimated — and overall, probably have more free time because we wouldn’t need to constantly drive the children to sports and other activities.
At the same time, one could also argue a third option C): If we go with option A, we could sell the property there with the house and use the proceeds for option B. Then we could probably do everything exactly as we want in the city again — ending up with the same situation: instead of two rented houses, we would only have one, but with a valuable home in the city. The “only” remaining problem would be finding a plot without any unpleasant surprises…
Of course, I know this is ultimately a decision we have to make ourselves — but how would you approach this? Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Neither of us has ever lived in the countryside; are there hidden costs that might come up there, which we wouldn’t face in the city?Location-wise and considering your specific commute, I would lean toward the city. But since you don’t commute that often, you already have the 1,000sqm (10,760 sq ft) plot, and would need only a small budget for renovation, I might prefer that, provided you can come to terms with village life. I’m a city person and would always choose the city, especially with children! We live on the edge of a city with 600,000 inhabitants and are very happy there. Regardless of the car, everything is walkable, and we can reach the city center in 30 minutes. It’s still quite quiet, green, and you know your neighbors.
We recently renovated a bathroom in a bungalow in Mecklenburg and ended up completely frustrated. You have to drive everywhere again for the smallest thing. For anything a bit special, it’s at least 30km (18 miles) away. For a simple bread roll or similar, 6km (4 miles). That’s not for us—even the peace and the starry sky don’t make up for it. But of course, it’s very individual. Every location is different. Friends of ours moved 50km (31 miles) out, and I wouldn’t want to live there—they have to travel a lot because of children and work, but they still like it.
You are in an exceptionally comfortable financial position and can choose honestly based on your preferences without having to justify anything.
Winniefred schrieb:
Driving every time for the smallest thingWinniefred schrieb:
At least 6km (4 miles) for every roll and so onLiving in the countryside for a longer time changes your shopping habits. I don’t want to judge whether that’s better or worse, but with good planning, we only need to go shopping at most once a week. I keep bread rolls in the freezer, and we freshly bake them for the weekend breakfast.
You learn to live more proactively, which I don’t see as a bad thing in itself. Even when visiting hardware stores and the like, you usually have a long list of projects in mind and don’t just buy screws for project A. I can easily believe that someone not used to this discipline might get frustrated because you can’t just pop down to the hardware store three times like you used to.
I lived in the city for 13 years, not bad at all and not noisy either, but one day I sat on my city balcony (because after work I preferred to have a glass of wine on my balcony rather than going to a pub) and got annoyed because I could only hear cars, while on a mild summer evening I would much rather hear crickets. As I said: where I lived wasn’t loud, but the constant hum of city traffic and the commuter train a bit further away created a continuous sound background.
And there were people everywhere, all the time. That’s when the little autistic part of me came out: it was stressful, I need quiet, people-free zones, and the chance to just go for a walk alone.
So for me: only the countryside!
By conviction. We live VERY rurally. Besides a mailbox, a pub (still!), a church, a tire dealer, and a farm machinery workshop, we have about 450 residents here. Yes, you depend on a car, but with good planning you need it less than you think. We also do a lot by bike, and before COVID I used to cycle to the nearest train station and take the train to Munich (that was 9km (6 miles)—I don’t consider that a significant distance, especially since my route includes 3 relatively steep climbs, not to mention the hills in between). Currently, I only work from home and really enjoy it! Even after COVID, working from home will probably remain above 50% (I’m almost thankful for COVID because that wouldn’t have been possible before).
I also know people who found rural life awful and were very happy to move back to the city. I just can’t relate, but that’s just how it is.
Regarding the argument that you always have to use the car—I want to disagree. You learn to plan better.
As I said: there are weeks when we have everything we need at home and don’t go to town at all. Since early March, during the COVID period, we’ve only filled up our cars about twice.