Hello everyone,
Currently, we have two fairly final offers from two general contractors (GCs). One GC is a regional company that is reportedly very well rated online (4.7 out of 5 stars according to Google). All our discussions with them were very convincing, and we felt very comfortable. On the other hand, we have a well-known and respected GC, especially in the northern region, called Viebrockhaus. Our advisor there is very dedicated, and you can tell you are dealing with a professional salesperson, which does not mean we did not also feel comfortable with the regional GC. The house in question was designed almost identically by both, so we can compare very well. Nevertheless, both have their differences here and there in terms of house construction, building services, etc. Price-wise, Viebrockhaus is predictably about €6,000 cheaper. We are still very torn. For us, the price is not necessarily decisive, but mainly the quality of the final home, which is why I am seeking advice and opinions on the mentioned differences between the offers here in the forum.
In detail, the following points can currently be compared. The costs for the sampling/customization selection are not yet clear.
Currently, we have two fairly final offers from two general contractors (GCs). One GC is a regional company that is reportedly very well rated online (4.7 out of 5 stars according to Google). All our discussions with them were very convincing, and we felt very comfortable. On the other hand, we have a well-known and respected GC, especially in the northern region, called Viebrockhaus. Our advisor there is very dedicated, and you can tell you are dealing with a professional salesperson, which does not mean we did not also feel comfortable with the regional GC. The house in question was designed almost identically by both, so we can compare very well. Nevertheless, both have their differences here and there in terms of house construction, building services, etc. Price-wise, Viebrockhaus is predictably about €6,000 cheaper. We are still very torn. For us, the price is not necessarily decisive, but mainly the quality of the final home, which is why I am seeking advice and opinions on the mentioned differences between the offers here in the forum.
In detail, the following points can currently be compared. The costs for the sampling/customization selection are not yet clear.
| Comparable Services | Viebrockhaus | Regional GC |
| Insulation/Wall Construction | Double-shell wall construction 15 cm aerated concrete masonry, 12 cm thermal insulation, 1.5 cm air gap, 11.5 cm clinker brick veneer approx. 40.0 cm total wall thickness | Double-shell wall construction 17.5 cm backing masonry (aerated concrete PPW 2 or PPW 4, e.g., from Ytong or H&H), 18.0 cm core insulation (with thermal conductivity rating WLG 032), approx. 1.5 cm finger gap, 11.5 cm facing brick, approx. 1.5 cm textured plaster (grain size 2-3 mm, white color), approx. 50.0 cm total wall thickness |
| Attic (Wall Construction) | Drywall partitions | Solid aerated concrete (wall thicknesses of 11.5 cm and 17.5 cm, PPW 2–4) |
| Building Services | Air-to-water heat pump and controlled ventilation system Indoor unit: Nibe VVM S320, outdoor unit: Nibe Fighter 2040-6 | Air-to-water heat pump including controlled ventilation system with heat recovery Indoor unit: Stiebel Eltron, model LWZ 5 S Plus. |
| Photovoltaic System | 2.6 kWp with 6.5 kWh battery storage | 3.25 kWp with 4 kWh battery storage |
| Roof Structure | Studio truss roof with purlins | Purlin roof including concealed steel supports |
| Living Area | 152.40 m² (1,641 sq ft) | 151.47 m² (1,630 sq ft) |
| Warranty | 10 years | 5 years |
J
jwhick_0725 Jun 2020 21:01ypg schrieb:
No, but the 40+ standard is more of an idealistic thing anyway, in my opinion it doesn’t really pay off.This is certainly a sensitive topic. We also thought about it for a long time and mainly took the 40 Plus standard as a basis for comparison between the general contractors. Unfortunately, with Viebrockhaus it isn’t possible otherwise, as they don’t want to deviate from their proven system and established procedures. Which standard would you choose? Where do you see the best value for money? We definitely want to build with photovoltaics plus battery storage, so that seemed like a natural choice. When it comes to standards, I’m actually somewhat conflicted, especially regarding insulation.
T_im_Norden schrieb:
Northern Germany is a two-shell construction region. I would maintain that because the companies are used to it.
I find Viebrockhaus’ wall construction strange; 15 cm (6 inches) interior wall thickness is unusual.
Viebrockhaus has some cost items that could become expensive because they are not included.
Are you building in a commuter belt?We are building about 16 km (10 miles) from Hamburg’s border. Why Viebrockhaus builds such a “thin” internal shell, I cannot say; I haven’t questioned this. Which costs do you see as critical? I am currently still in communication with our product manager, trying to clarify the open cost points. Unfortunately, Viebrockhaus is reluctant to estimate the exact costs or prefers to discuss them only after the contract is signed. I find this concerning. Ideally, I want to have more information about additional building costs before I put my signature down.
K1300S schrieb:
There are already many opinions here, so one more or less won’t make a difference.
I would go so far as to say that a properly built drywall partition is not only “not inferior” but is actually clearly superior to a so-called massive solution with aerated concrete, both in terms of sound insulation and mounting (heavier) furniture on walls.
Why build a two-shell wall only to plaster it—standard practice at Viebrockhaus—is beyond me. A well-done external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS or “rendered external insulation”) is certainly fine, which however includes using high-quality render. If someone doesn’t like that, it’s another matter, but using “because that’s how it’s always been done in the North” as a preference for two-shell construction is, in my opinion, wrong. If anything, I would rather choose calcium silicate bricks instead of aerated concrete if additional insulation is required anyway.
Last but not least: (I’ve written this here multiple times.) You can create Excel, Calc, or Numbers spreadsheets until you turn black, but that will not reveal which offer is actually better (i.e., cheaper at the same quality). Much depends on the very specific execution, and no building description in the world provides that level of detail. For you, the decision should be: Do you feel more comfortable with the large, established building giant or with a smaller, possibly family-run local contractor? Provided neither supplier cuts corners—which I assume—both will deliver a solid house, probably for very similar prices. (I would consider price differences below 10,000 EUR (approx. $10,900) negligible.)At the risk of putting my foot in it, why is it such a negative topic to finish a two-shell masonry wall with plaster? Unfortunately, I am not very well versed in this subject.
It’s not a drawback, just overall more complex and therefore more expensive. From that perspective, it’s simply unnecessary effort to build the outer shell solely as a base for the plaster.
I don’t mind whether the structural shell is thinner or thicker. It will be structurally sound, and it doesn’t serve any other purpose.
I don’t mind whether the structural shell is thinner or thicker. It will be structurally sound, and it doesn’t serve any other purpose.
jwhick_07 schrieb:
Where do you see the best value for money? We definitely want to build with photovoltaic solar panels plus battery storage, so that was a natural choice. I can’t really tell you anymore, as I’m not familiar with the current KfW packages.
When I was building, the energy saving regulation was EnEV 100, and we went with the 70 standard, just over 55. But that’s also because we’re not the youngest, so less eager to experiment and we rely on gas.
I probably would have chosen photovoltaic as well if there had been a south-facing roof surface.
In our planned community (10km (6 miles) from Hamburg), there are some standard models, and they are very boring… You can swap out a few things here and there or get an additional lean-to roof, dividing walls are possible too, but the rest seems pretty fixed. You’d think even the interior packages include only a few tiles and sanitary fixtures. The small general contractor sends you to tile or bathroom specialist stores where you can choose freely within your budget. If you want more, you pay more. I believe with V, there are only fixed packages?!
K1300S schrieb:
I would even go so far as to say that a properly constructed drywall partition is not “inferior” [...]
I do not assume it is a problem to find competent companies “up north” that install ETICS. I have certainly pointed out several times that there are only two stones nowhere found in building supply stores: the philosopher’s stone and the devil’s stone. All other wall construction materials have their justification, each within their respective domains. And just as tens of thousands of homeowners are happy with PVC windows, they can also be happy with ETICS—both completely regardless of the fact that personally, neither would win a medal with me. When building, one should avoid turning anything into a crusade. Pluralism does no harm here either.
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T
T_im_Norden26 Jun 2020 06:39It would mean more expensive.
Site setup and construction access road, if necessary, can be costly.
I would only consider a battery for photovoltaics if it is subsidized.
Otherwise, it doesn’t make much sense.
Site setup and construction access road, if necessary, can be costly.
I would only consider a battery for photovoltaics if it is subsidized.
Otherwise, it doesn’t make much sense.
N
Nicon100126 Jun 2020 07:53jwhick_07 schrieb:
Are you aware if the monolithic construction method can also achieve KfW 40+?You can even reach KfW 40 with 36.5cm (14.4 inches) bricks.
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