Hello dear forum members,
I have been quietly reading along from time to time, but now I feel compelled to ask a question myself (bravely).
We don’t yet have a plot of land or a house but are very interested. Everywhere you look and listen, there are contradictory statements depending on who is trying to sell what. It’s clear there is no one perfect heating system; each has its advantages and disadvantages, but it is all really confusing. Therefore, I am interested in your experiences, please also the positive ones!
Our plot will be about 1000m2 (0.25 acres), currently we have one in sight. The house should be about 160 to 180m2 (1700 to 1900 square feet). Which energy efficiency standard (KfW level) is still unclear. Location: southern Lower Saxony, a bit of a low mountain region, not a water protection area.
Unfortunately, there is no natural gas supply there, otherwise we would have chosen a condensing boiler.
I find a liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) tank in the garden unattractive – and I don’t know if it’s possible to have it underground, but I don’t like the idea of “refueling” either; I didn’t like that when we had an oil heating system before either...
Right now, the ground source heat exchanger with deep geothermal drilling is the most interesting option for us.
I’ve already done some research on soil conditions (talked to geologists):
- Limestone, clay, gypsum, no anhydrite; little water exchange, so a groundwater heat pump is probably out of the question, deep drilling should be possible but not easy. The deeper, the better.
The couple next door just built, and because of the water situation, they decided against a basement. A pity but not a big deal.
Wish:
-> The bathroom should be able to reach 24°C (75°F) – I’m really sensitive to cold!! Freezing in winter is truly a no-go for me – just how I am...
Now to a summary of the information I have gathered so far – it is very confusing for us:
Geothermal:
- 40 to 100m (130 to 330 feet) drilling depth, the deeper the better, but of course more expensive
- good efficiency, provided everything works out
- no clear information on durability, problems with earth movements causing pump failure; a representative from a prefab house company said they no longer offer geothermal systems because of many returns and dissatisfied customers, given the high costs!
- if poorly planned or in an unsuitable environment, risk of freezing, problems in cold winters and summers because the ground can’t regenerate (so drill deeper?)
- who has experience with drill depths over 150m (500 feet)? It was recommended to us
Air-source heat pump:
- mostly negative reports
- poor efficiency in winter, leading to higher electricity consumption, costs skyrocket!!! or it doesn’t get warm enough
- adjustment and setting issues, professionals and heating installers overwhelmed
- apparently complicated calculations on where and how much underfloor heating should be installed, with extra insulation and wall heating in the bathroom, still needing support from the heating unit and electricity
- then the outdoor unit is too noisy and causes conflicts with neighbors
- always something broken and nobody responds
- can anyone share good experiences with this?
- it is often recommended by prefab house providers because it is “cheap” and then there is still money left for other things?
- are expensive units significantly better than cheap ones?
- I really don’t want to post heating curves or have discussions about adjustment options, I simply want it to be warm and stay warm. Why is that such a problem with this system?
Question about ventilation:
- when is it absolutely recommended? Already at KfW55?
- In principle, I like ventilation systems with heat recovery (being at work all day, constant airing is a problem!), but I have serious nasal issues and fear the biggest difficulties in winter with dry rooms. There are humidification systems – how advisable are they?
- How about the risk of bacterial growth in the duct systems?
- At a prefab house exhibition park we noticed that even the supposedly well-ventilated houses smell musty by 11 a.m., just after the park opens. Not very pleasant.
You’d think everything would be great with renewable energy and then it’s just difficulties everywhere you look.
For us, the purchase of the plot depends heavily on this. The ecological aspect is definitely important, and we are willing to invest accordingly, but we don’t want to be cold because of it...
I look forward to clear and understandable contributions, as I am still a complete beginner.
I’d prefer to clarify things beforehand to avoid a nasty surprise later on.
Thank you very much for your effort!
Best regards, Anni
I have been quietly reading along from time to time, but now I feel compelled to ask a question myself (bravely).
We don’t yet have a plot of land or a house but are very interested. Everywhere you look and listen, there are contradictory statements depending on who is trying to sell what. It’s clear there is no one perfect heating system; each has its advantages and disadvantages, but it is all really confusing. Therefore, I am interested in your experiences, please also the positive ones!
Our plot will be about 1000m2 (0.25 acres), currently we have one in sight. The house should be about 160 to 180m2 (1700 to 1900 square feet). Which energy efficiency standard (KfW level) is still unclear. Location: southern Lower Saxony, a bit of a low mountain region, not a water protection area.
Unfortunately, there is no natural gas supply there, otherwise we would have chosen a condensing boiler.
I find a liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) tank in the garden unattractive – and I don’t know if it’s possible to have it underground, but I don’t like the idea of “refueling” either; I didn’t like that when we had an oil heating system before either...
Right now, the ground source heat exchanger with deep geothermal drilling is the most interesting option for us.
I’ve already done some research on soil conditions (talked to geologists):
- Limestone, clay, gypsum, no anhydrite; little water exchange, so a groundwater heat pump is probably out of the question, deep drilling should be possible but not easy. The deeper, the better.
The couple next door just built, and because of the water situation, they decided against a basement. A pity but not a big deal.
Wish:
-> The bathroom should be able to reach 24°C (75°F) – I’m really sensitive to cold!! Freezing in winter is truly a no-go for me – just how I am...
Now to a summary of the information I have gathered so far – it is very confusing for us:
Geothermal:
- 40 to 100m (130 to 330 feet) drilling depth, the deeper the better, but of course more expensive
- good efficiency, provided everything works out
- no clear information on durability, problems with earth movements causing pump failure; a representative from a prefab house company said they no longer offer geothermal systems because of many returns and dissatisfied customers, given the high costs!
- if poorly planned or in an unsuitable environment, risk of freezing, problems in cold winters and summers because the ground can’t regenerate (so drill deeper?)
- who has experience with drill depths over 150m (500 feet)? It was recommended to us
Air-source heat pump:
- mostly negative reports
- poor efficiency in winter, leading to higher electricity consumption, costs skyrocket!!! or it doesn’t get warm enough
- adjustment and setting issues, professionals and heating installers overwhelmed
- apparently complicated calculations on where and how much underfloor heating should be installed, with extra insulation and wall heating in the bathroom, still needing support from the heating unit and electricity
- then the outdoor unit is too noisy and causes conflicts with neighbors
- always something broken and nobody responds
- can anyone share good experiences with this?
- it is often recommended by prefab house providers because it is “cheap” and then there is still money left for other things?
- are expensive units significantly better than cheap ones?
- I really don’t want to post heating curves or have discussions about adjustment options, I simply want it to be warm and stay warm. Why is that such a problem with this system?
Question about ventilation:
- when is it absolutely recommended? Already at KfW55?
- In principle, I like ventilation systems with heat recovery (being at work all day, constant airing is a problem!), but I have serious nasal issues and fear the biggest difficulties in winter with dry rooms. There are humidification systems – how advisable are they?
- How about the risk of bacterial growth in the duct systems?
- At a prefab house exhibition park we noticed that even the supposedly well-ventilated houses smell musty by 11 a.m., just after the park opens. Not very pleasant.
You’d think everything would be great with renewable energy and then it’s just difficulties everywhere you look.
For us, the purchase of the plot depends heavily on this. The ecological aspect is definitely important, and we are willing to invest accordingly, but we don’t want to be cold because of it...
I look forward to clear and understandable contributions, as I am still a complete beginner.
I’d prefer to clarify things beforehand to avoid a nasty surprise later on.
Thank you very much for your effort!
Best regards, Anni
Lamenta schrieb:
- When is this strongly recommended? Already at KfW55 standard?Nowadays, always with the plastic bags.
Lamenta schrieb:
- In principle, I think ventilation with heat recovery is good (being at work all day, constantly airing is a problem!), but I have major issues with my nose in winter with dry indoor air and fear significant difficulties. There are also humidification systems – how advisable are they?Enthalpy heat exchangers provide a solution.
Lamenta schrieb:
- What about bacterial growth in the ductwork?Not an issue, there is no basis for that.
Lamenta schrieb:
- At the prefabricated house exhibition, we noticed that even the supposedly well-ventilated houses smell quite musty around 11 a.m., shortly after the park opens. Not very appealing.There can be various reasons for this.
- Systems are not running continuously
- Systems are incorrectly sized
- Systems are installed for demonstration only
etc.
Lamenta schrieb:
You’d expect everything to be great with renewable energies, but there are difficulties everywhere you look.It really is great when done correctly.
A ventilation system should always be installed when building better than KfW70 standard. I can strongly recommend this, but for a central system, you should budget at least 10,000 euros (about $10,000), and with enthalpy recovery and app control, rather around 15,000 euros (about $15,000).
From my own experience, the common assumptions about heating often don’t hold true. Geothermal heating is the premium solution but is rarely cost-effective. Air source heat pumps are usually the better choice, especially if you have a large plot of land.
The annual electricity consumption of air source heat pumps is only slightly higher than that of geothermal systems. However, the initial investment for geothermal systems is usually over 10,000 euros (about $10,000) higher.
I advise against air source heat pumps in small plots mainly because of noise issues. But good quality systems have become very quiet nowadays.
From my own experience, the common assumptions about heating often don’t hold true. Geothermal heating is the premium solution but is rarely cost-effective. Air source heat pumps are usually the better choice, especially if you have a large plot of land.
The annual electricity consumption of air source heat pumps is only slightly higher than that of geothermal systems. However, the initial investment for geothermal systems is usually over 10,000 euros (about $10,000) higher.
I advise against air source heat pumps in small plots mainly because of noise issues. But good quality systems have become very quiet nowadays.
Mycraft schrieb:
always in today’s plastic bags.Airtightness is achieved by the plaster. Since when is that made from plastic bags?
Bookstar schrieb:
Always install a ventilation system if better than KfW70.The KFW does not set any airtightness requirements beyond the Energy Saving Ordinance. Therefore, the need for a ventilation system has nothing to do with a KFW efficiency house.
Bookstar schrieb:
You should budget at least 10,000 euros for a central system; with enthalpy recovery and app control, rather 15,000 euros.Enthalpy recovery costs about 400–500€ extra. Otherwise, it can be purchased as an accessory for around 800€, for example with Zehnder.
Bookstar schrieb:
From my own experience regarding heating, clichés are often not true. Geothermal energy is the deluxe solution, but rarely economical.Clichés are incorrect, yet you bring up the cliché of geothermal energy as the deluxe solution?
Any type of heat pump must be correctly dimensioned. Calculate heating load, select the heat generator, and design the heat source. If done properly and if the ground conditions allow, geothermal energy is absolutely economical, even without consumption cost advantages. Keep in mind, there is more than just borehole drilling, and geothermal energy is heavily subsidized, which can make it financially viable.
Bookstar schrieb:
Especially if you have such a large plot.In particular, geothermal energy can be installed cost-effectively using trench collectors or similar methods if borehole drilling is not an option.
Bookstar schrieb:
The electricity consumption of ventilation systems is on average only slightly higher than that of geothermal systems.A 20% difference can confidently be stated. Overall, however, this is not a huge amount of money.
Bookstar schrieb:
But the investment for geothermal systems is usually more than 10,000 euros higher.See above.
Nutshell schrieb:
@ares83
How large is the living area, and how much does heating cost per month on average?We have 160 m² (1722 sq ft) and expect to use around 3000 kWh in the first year. Considering a demand of about 13,000–14,000 kWh, I find this acceptable, and I’m satisfied with the first year’s outcome.Alex85 schrieb:
Airtightness is created by the plaster. Since when is plaster made of plastic bags?It’s not about airtightness but about the plastic bag itself, which is not airtight either.
Typical modern houses, with their usual use of petroleum-based materials, are replicas of a plastic bag at a 1:X scale.
To refer to your example: as soon as paint or wallpaper is applied to the plaster, plastic is introduced in or on it in the form of primer, paint, adhesive, etc.
Of course, it is possible to build an entire house without plastic, but very few do, since it often increases construction costs and brings new problems into the home.
However, none of this really relates to the original topic.
Mycraft schrieb:
But all of this has nothing to do with the actual topic.Your choice of words suggests otherwise. That’s why I wanted to ask.
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