Hello!
For almost two years now, I have been considering having a small pavilion in our garden converted internally and rented out as an apartment to a student or similar, in order to partially cover the maintenance costs of the property. The biggest question for me is how to carry out such a project in a financially viable way. I have already spoken with two architects who have very different estimates for the total cost (70,000 and 120,000). I also spoke with a small construction company that could handle the entire interior conversion (cost estimate around 50,000, but excluding architectural services).
The dilemma I’m facing is that I need an architect for the change of use application (the pavilion is currently not registered as living space but as a garden shed; the garden area is also classified as open land) as well as for the preliminary building inquiry (the pavilion’s exterior is protected as a historic monument, but a window is to be installed). The architect would of course oversee the entire construction, which would increase the costs. On the other hand, the renovation work could also be carried out independently by the construction company mentioned (likely at a significantly lower price). One of the architects said that due to the relatively minor modifications, hiring an architect might hardly be worthwhile.
To give a clearer picture, here are some key facts about the pavilion and the planned work.
Key data:
- Floor area 18m² (194 sq ft), the attic is also to be converted (about another 12m² (129 sq ft) of space)
- Connected to electricity, gas, water supply and drainage
- Exterior protected as a historic monument
- Located in an open land area
- Immediately adjacent to the road or property boundary
- Parking space installation possible
Planned work:
- Installation of bathroom and kitchenette
- Conversion of the attic as a second living level (for a bed)
- Installation of an additional window
- Installation of a heating system (gas boiler)
- Insulation (planned exemption from energy saving regulations due to disproportionately high costs)
My question is, which option would be the most cost-effective? For example, does it make sense to hire an architect only to handle all the formalities, and then, once the building permit / planning permission is approved, switch to a construction company and leave the architect out?
I look forward to any input!
Best regards, Tom
For almost two years now, I have been considering having a small pavilion in our garden converted internally and rented out as an apartment to a student or similar, in order to partially cover the maintenance costs of the property. The biggest question for me is how to carry out such a project in a financially viable way. I have already spoken with two architects who have very different estimates for the total cost (70,000 and 120,000). I also spoke with a small construction company that could handle the entire interior conversion (cost estimate around 50,000, but excluding architectural services).
The dilemma I’m facing is that I need an architect for the change of use application (the pavilion is currently not registered as living space but as a garden shed; the garden area is also classified as open land) as well as for the preliminary building inquiry (the pavilion’s exterior is protected as a historic monument, but a window is to be installed). The architect would of course oversee the entire construction, which would increase the costs. On the other hand, the renovation work could also be carried out independently by the construction company mentioned (likely at a significantly lower price). One of the architects said that due to the relatively minor modifications, hiring an architect might hardly be worthwhile.
To give a clearer picture, here are some key facts about the pavilion and the planned work.
Key data:
- Floor area 18m² (194 sq ft), the attic is also to be converted (about another 12m² (129 sq ft) of space)
- Connected to electricity, gas, water supply and drainage
- Exterior protected as a historic monument
- Located in an open land area
- Immediately adjacent to the road or property boundary
- Parking space installation possible
Planned work:
- Installation of bathroom and kitchenette
- Conversion of the attic as a second living level (for a bed)
- Installation of an additional window
- Installation of a heating system (gas boiler)
- Insulation (planned exemption from energy saving regulations due to disproportionately high costs)
My question is, which option would be the most cost-effective? For example, does it make sense to hire an architect only to handle all the formalities, and then, once the building permit / planning permission is approved, switch to a construction company and leave the architect out?
I look forward to any input!
Best regards, Tom
T
Tomtom19848 Nov 2018 20:19Escroda schrieb:
No. According to §42 (3) of the State Building Code BW, you will have to appoint a site manager who coordinates all trades. If you have each trade carried out by a different company, the architect is naturally the obvious choice for this role.Ah, thanks for the information! Do you have any experience with how it would work if, for example, the window installation was done by Company A and everything else by Company B? I guess that’s probably at the discretion of the local authority...
Thank you also for your clear explanations regarding the building permit / planning permission!
Escroda schrieb:
P.S.: In my opinion, your posts focus too much on finances. Your project is more for passion than profit. Keep in mind that an unmotivated (because underpaid) master bricklayer can ruin both.ypg schrieb:
A listed pavilion... in my view, the whole effort isn’t really worthwhile. Insulating walls, insulating the slab, insulating the roof. It also has windows. Then hot water, toilet wastewater, etc... it’s a passion project.You’re raising a crucial point! Yes, it’s a project for enthusiasts. And yes, everything is more complicated than with a “conventional” house. But I wonder if that really rules out an investment. Because after about 12 years, the project would pay off and generate profit. Or what exactly is your objection to the “passion project”?
Of course, the question is whether it’s really feasible with 75,000 euros (around 85,000 USD). I have an estimate for the interior work of over 50,000 euros (about 57,000 USD), and I don’t expect the architect to cost more than 25,000 euros (about 28,500 USD), or what do you think? (Though I realize it’s probably hard to judge from a distance...)
Maybe you could provide us with a few more pictures of the property to make it a bit more vivid.
Before putting in more effort, I would recommend scheduling an appointment with the local building authority to present your project and get an initial assessment. In my opinion, it is very likely that it will not be approved. The terms “outside area” and “garden shed” are not promising in this context.
Insulation will also be a very serious issue. Being a listed building definitely means exterior insulation is out of the question. Interior insulation is complex, costly, inefficient, and will further reduce the already limited space.
The only thing I have no doubt about is that you will be able to rent out the property successfully. I’m familiar with the area and understand the real estate and rental prices here. There are plenty of students with wealthy parents who would appreciate some privacy, quiet, and a bit of garden space for their precious places.
Before putting in more effort, I would recommend scheduling an appointment with the local building authority to present your project and get an initial assessment. In my opinion, it is very likely that it will not be approved. The terms “outside area” and “garden shed” are not promising in this context.
Insulation will also be a very serious issue. Being a listed building definitely means exterior insulation is out of the question. Interior insulation is complex, costly, inefficient, and will further reduce the already limited space.
The only thing I have no doubt about is that you will be able to rent out the property successfully. I’m familiar with the area and understand the real estate and rental prices here. There are plenty of students with wealthy parents who would appreciate some privacy, quiet, and a bit of garden space for their precious places.
M
Mottenhausen8 Nov 2018 22:08Tomtom1984 schrieb:
Or what exactly is your objection regarding the "enthusiast project"You shouldn’t go into debt for an enthusiast project. Otherwise, you turn what should be a fun hobby into a frustrating burden.
It would be like buying a vintage Porsche on credit, planning to drive it to work every day, and then getting annoyed because it frequently breaks down and needs constant repairs and maintenance.
Tomtom1984 schrieb:
Do you have any experience with this? Not in Baden-Württemberg. The qualifications of the site manager and proof thereof are not specified in detail by law. Neither in Baden-Württemberg nor in North Rhine-Westphalia. Here, the limits of acceptance are quite broad. Even a draftsman is not required to provide evidence of their fieldwork hours.
Tomtom1984 schrieb:
So, if the window is done by company A, and the rest by company B? … then a person from company B could take over the site management, so there would probably be no issues with the authorities. However, whether this person is suited to create a beloved property within a tight budget, while meeting all current standards and the requirements of historic preservation, is ultimately for you to assess. <Pessimism> A master craftsman from construction can sometimes be quite straightforward and, as you can tell from the reactions to your picture, may overlook the cultural value of your little gem. This often leads to cost-effective, practical solutions that intentionally disregard the preservation requirements, which in turn causes trouble, delays, and additional costs. </Pessimism>
Tomtom1984 schrieb:
But I wonder if that rules out the investment. No, not at all. I think it’s good that you’re looking for a practical use. I just want to point out that this is not a standard project, and any deviation from the norm causes significant extra costs—and you already want to save the 5k (fictional figure, I’m not familiar with the HOAI in this context) for construction supervision.
Tomtom1984 schrieb:
I have already spoken with them, and the initial feedback is quite positive If you have also spoken with the heritage preservation office and no objections were raised—or their conditions are acceptable to you—that would be enough for me to hire an architect. Arrange another appointment with the heritage authorities, bring site plans and photos, and prepare a detailed protocol of the conversation. Possibly request a short written statement confirming that, from their perspective, the change of use is approved under the discussed conditions, and then submit the building permit / planning permission application.
T
Tomtom19849 Nov 2018 15:39Escroda schrieb:
<Pessimism> A construction foreman can be quite blunt and, as you can tell from the reactions to your photo, may not fully appreciate the cultural value of your little gem. This often leads to cost-effective practical solutions that deliberately disregard regulations, which in turn causes trouble, delays, and additional expenses. </Pessimism>That sounds like good advice. If the foreman were to take on the construction management, wouldn’t he be interested in complying with the regulations?
Escroda schrieb:
I’m just pointing out that this is not a standard project and any deviation from standard will cause significant extra costs, and you’re already trying to save 5k (hypothetical figure, I’m not familiar with the HOAI regarding this) on construction supervision.Earlier I mentioned 25k, which I included for architectural services (out of a total 75k), so I am willing to pay more than 5k. At the same time, I wonder if that will be enough, as I’ve received very different cost estimates from architects.
Escroda schrieb:
If you have also spoken with the heritage authorities and they have not expressed resistance or their conditions are acceptable to you, that would be enough for me to commission an architect. Then schedule another meeting with the preservation officers, bring site plans and photos, and create a detailed record of the discussion. Possibly ask for a brief written statement confirming that the conversion is welcomed from their perspective under the agreed conditions, and then submit the building permit / planning permission application.That sounds like a good, workable approach. Until now, I’ve only spoken with the building department... Thanks for that!
Tomtom1984 schrieb:
Is the master craftsman, if he were to take over the construction management, not interested in complying with the requirements? I don’t know. Your posts trigger my imagination (I’m exaggerating):
You find a refined architect who presents a well-thought-out and detailed plan with a comprehensive construction description, taking into account special conditions (outdoor area, non-privileged, heritage protection, fire protection, thermal insulation) and the selection of specific building materials. Then comes a rough-and-ready practitioner who, given your financial constraints, has priced a bargain with standard materials and included that in the offer. He says that if he has to follow the architect’s plan exactly, it will cost twice as much, which throws your amortization calculation out of balance. Therefore, he suggests doing it his way, as he always has. And suddenly, you’re stuck in a dilemma.
OK, that’s a pessimistic scenario—there are also architects who are incompetent and craftsmen who are brilliant.
Tomtom1984 schrieb:
would therefore be willing to pay more than 5k My imagined 5k referred only to the construction management. You definitely need an experienced designer because your project must be well justified. I would not recommend a recent graduate with six months of internship experience. And you have already been in contact with architects. Ask them what the building permit/planning permission application and site supervision might cost. It’s also not a bad idea to have a specialist who oversees and inspects the craftsmen’s work.
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