Hello,
my wife and I would like to buy a plot of land with a house in Baden-Württemberg.
Background:
Plot 1 (marked in yellow) belongs to my father-in-law and his two siblings. All three are registered as equal co-owners in the land registry.
On plot 1, there is an old house (A), which is also intended to be sold to us. The old house (A) will most likely be demolished and replaced with a new building.
The sales value for the land and house will be based on the official standard land value. All parties have agreed to this.
This concerns plot 1 (marked in yellow).
Plot 2 and house B already belong to my parents-in-law.
As part of the sale, the plots will be re-surveyed, and part of plot 1 will be added to plot 2.
Afterwards, the plots should be divided roughly equally as follows:
Area outlined in blue (my wife and I)
Area outlined in red (my parents-in-law)
Now the question is, how should we (parents-in-law, my father-in-law’s siblings, my wife and I) best proceed?
Which steps need to be done first, and what is the best order?
I hope I have described the situation clearly enough.
Thank you very much in advance.
my wife and I would like to buy a plot of land with a house in Baden-Württemberg.
Background:
Plot 1 (marked in yellow) belongs to my father-in-law and his two siblings. All three are registered as equal co-owners in the land registry.
On plot 1, there is an old house (A), which is also intended to be sold to us. The old house (A) will most likely be demolished and replaced with a new building.
The sales value for the land and house will be based on the official standard land value. All parties have agreed to this.
This concerns plot 1 (marked in yellow).
Plot 2 and house B already belong to my parents-in-law.
As part of the sale, the plots will be re-surveyed, and part of plot 1 will be added to plot 2.
Afterwards, the plots should be divided roughly equally as follows:
Area outlined in blue (my wife and I)
Area outlined in red (my parents-in-law)
Now the question is, how should we (parents-in-law, my father-in-law’s siblings, my wife and I) best proceed?
Which steps need to be done first, and what is the best order?
I hope I have described the situation clearly enough.
Thank you very much in advance.
According to the building authority, there is no development plan for this area.
You’re right.
Thank you very much for the advice.
11ant schrieb:
1. Adjust the proportions correctly
2. Then we can have a meaningful discussion.
I don’t understand why one wouldn’t simply use a screenshot from the cadastral map, its proportions are always accurate,
and just like that, the handle is practically already screwed on.
You’re right.
WilderSueden schrieb:
Before anything is sold or demolished, I would submit a preliminary building inquiry (building permit enquiry / planning permission inquiry).
Thank you very much for the advice.
V
Vanman161013 Feb 2024 11:16We proceeded as follows in a similar case in NRW:
1. Called the municipal office responsible for building matters, explained the situation, and asked for the best way to proceed.
2. Did the same with the building authority.
3. Submitted a building permit application and waited for approval.
4. Applied for a subdivision permit (including surveying, etc.) and waited.
5. Registered a joint building obligation to allow boundary construction.
6. Transferred the land and house by gift deed.
In our case, however, it involved two adjoining buildings. Our house was not demolished but only remodeled, meaning the exterior walls remained intact.
Also, you don’t just want to subdivide the plots but split into three parts and then combine two plots.
At least a preliminary building inquiry is mandatory for such a case! I would still recommend having discussions with the building authority beforehand.
Whether the same option to register a joint building obligation to permit boundary construction exists in BW as in NRW is another question.
1. Called the municipal office responsible for building matters, explained the situation, and asked for the best way to proceed.
2. Did the same with the building authority.
3. Submitted a building permit application and waited for approval.
4. Applied for a subdivision permit (including surveying, etc.) and waited.
5. Registered a joint building obligation to allow boundary construction.
6. Transferred the land and house by gift deed.
In our case, however, it involved two adjoining buildings. Our house was not demolished but only remodeled, meaning the exterior walls remained intact.
Also, you don’t just want to subdivide the plots but split into three parts and then combine two plots.
At least a preliminary building inquiry is mandatory for such a case! I would still recommend having discussions with the building authority beforehand.
Whether the same option to register a joint building obligation to permit boundary construction exists in BW as in NRW is another question.
PascalBW schrieb:
You’re right about that.I couldn’t have said it better myself; the deviation from your rough basic sketch is quite significant (which I suspected). Now it’s much clearer, and solid proposals can be developed.Even better, you could also include another section (radius about 100 m (330 feet)) so that the actual building boundaries become visible. If possible, choose a map where the single-story outbuildings are differentiated.
The current house number 14 seems to slightly overlap its plot boundary with the western neighbor. And from the plot numbers, it appears that plot 15/2 may have been separated or marked off from a former overall plot 15.
I would—of course as an “opinion, not legal advice”—consider deviating significantly from the path of the measures you described. So let’s assume you were someone who listened to Charly’s father’s advice; then the following situation or approach would be likely:
1. presumably merging plot “15 now” and “15/2” would result in nothing other than a restoration of the original overall plot “15 old”;
2. all parties involved are (related by marriage) connected to each other;
3. your father-in-law (the biological testator of your wife) is involved as owner of this whole, holding part 1 with house A jointly with his siblings, and part 2 with house B together with his spouse (who is also the biological testator of your wife).
Who is the rogue or fool remains open and is a matter of choice.
Honestly: Charly’s father—and I understand him very well—considers the subdivision measures of the property/properties to be a rather frivolous undertaking that would create unnecessary fees and (in the case of inheritance, even twice applied) additional tax liabilities. From his point of view, the following is quite obvious:
1. Contribution of the existing ownership shares in plots “15 now” and “15/2” into a real estate community;
2. ground lease agreements of the real estate community for the area “outlined in blue” to the spouses “you & your wife” and for the area “outlined in red” to the parents-in-law;
3. settlement between the father-in-law and his siblings not over the property itself, but over the company shares;
4. this also offers much more favorable gift opportunities from the parents-in-law to your wife and you as well, each by transferring company shares.
In your ground lease agreement (2./blue), the handling of the costs for clearing the area by demolishing house A is also covered. At least Charly’s father claims he knows suitable lawyers and tax advisors. But with that, we are almost at the end of my free-form thoughts.
Are houses A and B actually in such different conditions because the parents-in-law still live in B, but you want to demolish A?
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Another option would be to dissolve the joint ownership of property 15 and the house on it, so that my father-in-law would be the sole owner registered in the land registry and would buy out his siblings. According to § 3 of the Real Estate Transfer Tax Act, no real estate transfer tax should apply in this case.
He would then sell property 15 entirely to my wife and me, and we would forgo subdividing or surveying the specific part of property 15, saving the related costs. This, of course, would depend on my parents-in-law agreeing to it.
Yes, they are, but it still needs to be discussed with an architect whether demolishing A makes sense or if a complete renovation would be more appropriate.
He would then sell property 15 entirely to my wife and me, and we would forgo subdividing or surveying the specific part of property 15, saving the related costs. This, of course, would depend on my parents-in-law agreeing to it.
11ant schrieb:
Are houses A and B in such different conditions because my parents-in-law continue to live in B, but you want to demolish A?
Yes, they are, but it still needs to be discussed with an architect whether demolishing A makes sense or if a complete renovation would be more appropriate.
PascalBW schrieb:
Thank you very much for the detailed response. I will pass on your thanks to Charly’s father.
PascalBW schrieb:
That definitely sounds like a reasonable alternative. I would rather call that "alternative" the "Plan A" — the habits of common folks differ from those of family offices and trusts. Apparently, the “average person” prefers to transfer their assets to the state treasury. To each their own pleasure.
PascalBW schrieb:
He would then sell the entire property 15 to my wife and me, and we would skip the subdivision/surveying of the partial plot from 15, thus saving the associated costs — provided my parents-in-law agree. In *ahem* my circles *grins* they say that only those who also cut down amounts buy something from a testator (see above).
Even the smallest dog can jump over the boundary line on the cadastral map without any running start if you don’t physically mark it with a fence. To legitimize enjoyment and disposal, seizable ownership is not required. Anyone who enjoys paying taxes for transferring their assets between a bankbook and a cookie jar is welcome to do so. At least you realize that fees generated for a virtual fence have no nutritional value. So there is still hope.
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