ᐅ Gas Condensing Boiler or Air-to-Water Heat Pump for a Water-Heating Fireplace?
Created on: 23 Feb 2014 23:35
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FrankDr
We are currently planning a new build of about 180m² (1,938 sq ft) to KfW70 standard and have been considering for some time which primary energy source to use. The plan definitely includes
- underfloor heating throughout
- controlled mechanical ventilation (current favorite: Buderus HRV)
- a water-based fireplace (Wodtke Giro, 8 kW with buffer storage)
Since we enjoy wood heat, it’s not a problem to cover cold peaks in winter, which can be expensive with a heat pump. However, a heat pump requires a higher initial investment by several thousand, and electricity tariffs for heat pumps are disappearing. At 27 cents per kWh, electricity is not cheap.
On the other hand, we would have to pay about €1800 (approximately $1950) just to install a gas connection (despite being in a new development area), plus a basic fee on the otherwise cheap gas, and an additional chimney flue running through the entire house would need to be planned and installed.
At the moment, we are undecided... My brother-in-law is a heating engineer and doesn’t want to influence us (though he would lean towards gas) and he works at Buderus, so we get very good discounts regardless of what we choose. That means the brand is basically set.
Is a Buderus heat pump (indoor or split system) a good choice together with the Buderus HRV mechanical ventilation? Or would gas be better?
- underfloor heating throughout
- controlled mechanical ventilation (current favorite: Buderus HRV)
- a water-based fireplace (Wodtke Giro, 8 kW with buffer storage)
Since we enjoy wood heat, it’s not a problem to cover cold peaks in winter, which can be expensive with a heat pump. However, a heat pump requires a higher initial investment by several thousand, and electricity tariffs for heat pumps are disappearing. At 27 cents per kWh, electricity is not cheap.
On the other hand, we would have to pay about €1800 (approximately $1950) just to install a gas connection (despite being in a new development area), plus a basic fee on the otherwise cheap gas, and an additional chimney flue running through the entire house would need to be planned and installed.
At the moment, we are undecided... My brother-in-law is a heating engineer and doesn’t want to influence us (though he would lean towards gas) and he works at Buderus, so we get very good discounts regardless of what we choose. That means the brand is basically set.
Is a Buderus heat pump (indoor or split system) a good choice together with the Buderus HRV mechanical ventilation? Or would gas be better?
Bauexperte schrieb:
- Putting aside the usefulness of a water-bearing fireplace – no answer.
Regards, BauexperteIt would be nice if at least the moderators didn’t just throw bits of information at beginners.
I have clearly explained above why I am considering the idea of a water-bearing fireplace. An air-to-water heat pump is already a significant investment, especially since our terrain is heavily terraced and challenging, and energy prices are currently soaring, as there are hardly any special heat pump tariffs anymore.
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Bauexperte3 Mar 2014 11:51Hello,
As far as I know, heat pump tariffs are still widely available in Germany; there aren’t that many electricity providers, and they are still sticking to this pricing model. And if you do use the search function, also look for threads about air-to-water heat pumps—you will quickly find that these require less than 0.x of electricity annually. So the argument that an air-to-water heat pump heats exclusively with electricity doesn’t hold up.
In your reply to €uro - #3 - you show that you are unwilling to engage with his arguments; €uro is a professional in heating systems for single-family homes. You fall back on the point that you can get the units cheaper through your contact. But what if that provider’s configurations don’t fit the requirements of your construction project? To clarify: I can still get cheaper spare parts today than many others for an Italian vehicle. That’s useless to me if a German car is parked in my space.
All in all, it reads as if you have a firm, unchangeable opinion about the heating technology that’s “yours” for the future. When doubts about its practicality are raised—by €uro or myself—you apparently don’t want to hear them. So why do you even ask? Just go ahead with your contact and be done with it...
Regards,
Bauexperte
FrankDr schrieb:That’s a good point—I also find it helpful when beginners use the search function; the topic of a "water-bearing fireplace" has been discussed frequently and, in my opinion, exhaustively.
It would be nice if moderators at least didn’t just throw bits of information at newcomers.
FrankDr schrieb:An air-to-water heat pump costs about the same upfront as common gas condensing boilers including solar domestic hot water heating and has little to nothing to do with your terrain.
An air-to-water heat pump is already a huge expense, especially since our terrain is very terraced and difficult, and electricity prices are currently skyrocketing because there are little to no special heat pump tariffs available anymore.
As far as I know, heat pump tariffs are still widely available in Germany; there aren’t that many electricity providers, and they are still sticking to this pricing model. And if you do use the search function, also look for threads about air-to-water heat pumps—you will quickly find that these require less than 0.x of electricity annually. So the argument that an air-to-water heat pump heats exclusively with electricity doesn’t hold up.
In your reply to €uro - #3 - you show that you are unwilling to engage with his arguments; €uro is a professional in heating systems for single-family homes. You fall back on the point that you can get the units cheaper through your contact. But what if that provider’s configurations don’t fit the requirements of your construction project? To clarify: I can still get cheaper spare parts today than many others for an Italian vehicle. That’s useless to me if a German car is parked in my space.
All in all, it reads as if you have a firm, unchangeable opinion about the heating technology that’s “yours” for the future. When doubts about its practicality are raised—by €uro or myself—you apparently don’t want to hear them. So why do you even ask? Just go ahead with your contact and be done with it...
Regards,
Bauexperte
I cannot confirm that. Nowadays, a gas condensing boiler, including connection costs, is definitely cheaper to install than an air source heat pump, and solar thermal systems are not necessarily required. If they are, the price for a gas condensing boiler plus solar thermal system and connection is still slightly below the cost of an air source heat pump.
Mycraft schrieb:
I can’t confirm that. Nowadays, a gas condensing boiler including installation costs is definitely cheaper to purchase than an air source heat pump, and solar thermal systems are not necessarily required... if solar is included, the price for a gas condensing boiler plus solar thermal and installation is still just under the cost of an air source heat pump... If the wrong air source heat pump was chosen, that might be true, but it is very unlikely! With a precise initial assessment, this is less to be expected! For specific examples where a gas condensing boiler without a solar thermal system would be sufficient, I would be grateful!
Best regards
NB:
Gas condensing boiler enthusiasts should consider installing heat meters for heating and domestic hot water. Comparing consumption with the gas meter readings usually leads to a reality check => JNG!
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Bauexperte4 Mar 2014 10:05Hello,
In recent years, the share of air-to-water heat pumps and ground-source heat pumps in home construction has steadily increased; as a result, the volumes have risen and sales prices have decreased. This also applies to controlled ventilation systems, whether with or without heat recovery. A few years ago, these systems still cost around 13,000 euros, but today a decent system with heat recovery costs hardly more than 10,000 euros.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Mycraft schrieb:That may have been your experience; you should ask your supplier.
I can’t confirm that; a gas condensing boiler including installation costs is definitely cheaper nowadays than an air-source heat pump, and solar thermal is not necessarily required...if it is, then the price for a gas condensing boiler plus solar thermal plus connection is still slightly below the price of an air-source heat pump.
In recent years, the share of air-to-water heat pumps and ground-source heat pumps in home construction has steadily increased; as a result, the volumes have risen and sales prices have decreased. This also applies to controlled ventilation systems, whether with or without heat recovery. A few years ago, these systems still cost around 13,000 euros, but today a decent system with heat recovery costs hardly more than 10,000 euros.
Best regards, Bauexperte
D
DerBjoern4 Mar 2014 10:06The cost difference also depends on the location. Here, I can hardly get heat pump electricity cheaper. The cheapest rate is 21.5 cents plus a €5.95 (about $6.30) basic monthly fee for the additional meter. I don’t save anything compared to the 27 cents for the regular rate.
The gas connection didn’t cost me more than €1000 (about $1100). That made it very difficult for the heat pump to be cost-effective in the amortization calculation.
The gas connection didn’t cost me more than €1000 (about $1100). That made it very difficult for the heat pump to be cost-effective in the amortization calculation.
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