ᐅ City or countryside, new construction or renovation – the challenge of choosing!?
Created on: 2 Aug 2020 16:25
D
dankosos
Hello everyone,
I already started a thread in the financing section to estimate a possible loan range. Now we have roughly outlined that and are considering the options available to us.
Here’s a luxury problem:
We currently own two plots of land with rental properties on them. One is in the middle of the city (a 100 sqm (1,076 sq ft) terraced townhouse with a small garden directly on a main road), and the other about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city (a small detached single-family home, on nearly 1,000 sqm (10,764 sq ft) of land, in a quiet location). Additionally, we have €300,000 (including support from relatives) in cash equity plus around €50,000 set aside as a buffer for unexpected expenses in everyday life or on the houses, and a solid income that comfortably supports a loan of about €500,000 (more details in the financing thread).
We are now considering two options for our own home (goal: around 180 sqm (1,938 sq ft) living space for 2 adults, 2 children, home office, and regular visitors):
Option A) We build the house about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city by expanding, renovating, or starting new. There is no longer a formal development plan there, but the neighborhood is quite mixed, and we are pretty sure we could create something we really like without rush. Another plus: With our equity, we’d only need a comparatively small loan (somewhere between €150,000 and at most €300,000) and would either be debt-free within 10-15 years (in our early/mid-40s) or have a long period of relatively low payments compared to our income. The village is quite sought-after, so we would also likely be able to sell the house well, if needed.
The biggest disadvantage is the location. I don’t work in the nearby city but commute around 250 km (155 miles) per office day, 240 km (149 miles) of that by high-speed train. It’s not a big deal as the train time is working time, and I was already able to work 2, sometimes 3 days from home before COVID, with the city station only 1.5 km (1 mile) away. However, if we moved to the village, the one-way distance to the station would be 8 km (5 miles), and the return trip is quite uphill. It’s certainly doable (I am quite fit cycling and would even welcome a somewhat longer bike ride than at present), especially if I can permanently work three days from home. But in everyday life with kids, it might not be so practical—for example, if my wife can’t leave work, I would easily need 1.5 hours at best to commute. Also, we would lose rental income from here (including terminating a tenancy by a tenant who has lived there since 1975—we aren’t in a hurry, but it just feels unpleasant...) and probably have underestimated the investment required. Therefore…
Option B) We buy an existing property in the city and renovate or expand it. The big, big downside here is the typically inflated and still very competitive property market. It will probably take years to find something, and when you do, you basically have to decide at the first viewing—which is quite stressful for us cautious people. Due to the high purchase price (with additional costs around €550,000 minimum, so a new build is off the table), we would likely have to make many compromises during the renovation based on what I have seen in similar projects.
But we could stay in the city, would only need one car, no monthly passes for the kids, etc.—which is a considerable advantage compared to the loan repayment—and overall, we would probably have more free time since we wouldn’t have to constantly drive the children to sports and other activities.
At the same time, one could argue a third option C): if we choose A, we could sell the property with the house there later and use the proceeds for option B. Then we could probably do everything in the city according to our wishes—and the final situation would be the same: instead of owning two rental homes, we would only have one, but in addition, a valuable house in the city. The only remaining problem would be finding a plot without unpleasant surprises…
Of course, I know this is ultimately our decision to make – but how would you approach it? Has anyone been in the same situation? Neither of us has ever lived in the countryside; what hidden costs might come up there that you wouldn’t have in the city?
I already started a thread in the financing section to estimate a possible loan range. Now we have roughly outlined that and are considering the options available to us.
Here’s a luxury problem:
We currently own two plots of land with rental properties on them. One is in the middle of the city (a 100 sqm (1,076 sq ft) terraced townhouse with a small garden directly on a main road), and the other about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city (a small detached single-family home, on nearly 1,000 sqm (10,764 sq ft) of land, in a quiet location). Additionally, we have €300,000 (including support from relatives) in cash equity plus around €50,000 set aside as a buffer for unexpected expenses in everyday life or on the houses, and a solid income that comfortably supports a loan of about €500,000 (more details in the financing thread).
We are now considering two options for our own home (goal: around 180 sqm (1,938 sq ft) living space for 2 adults, 2 children, home office, and regular visitors):
Option A) We build the house about 5 km (3 miles) outside the city by expanding, renovating, or starting new. There is no longer a formal development plan there, but the neighborhood is quite mixed, and we are pretty sure we could create something we really like without rush. Another plus: With our equity, we’d only need a comparatively small loan (somewhere between €150,000 and at most €300,000) and would either be debt-free within 10-15 years (in our early/mid-40s) or have a long period of relatively low payments compared to our income. The village is quite sought-after, so we would also likely be able to sell the house well, if needed.
The biggest disadvantage is the location. I don’t work in the nearby city but commute around 250 km (155 miles) per office day, 240 km (149 miles) of that by high-speed train. It’s not a big deal as the train time is working time, and I was already able to work 2, sometimes 3 days from home before COVID, with the city station only 1.5 km (1 mile) away. However, if we moved to the village, the one-way distance to the station would be 8 km (5 miles), and the return trip is quite uphill. It’s certainly doable (I am quite fit cycling and would even welcome a somewhat longer bike ride than at present), especially if I can permanently work three days from home. But in everyday life with kids, it might not be so practical—for example, if my wife can’t leave work, I would easily need 1.5 hours at best to commute. Also, we would lose rental income from here (including terminating a tenancy by a tenant who has lived there since 1975—we aren’t in a hurry, but it just feels unpleasant...) and probably have underestimated the investment required. Therefore…
Option B) We buy an existing property in the city and renovate or expand it. The big, big downside here is the typically inflated and still very competitive property market. It will probably take years to find something, and when you do, you basically have to decide at the first viewing—which is quite stressful for us cautious people. Due to the high purchase price (with additional costs around €550,000 minimum, so a new build is off the table), we would likely have to make many compromises during the renovation based on what I have seen in similar projects.
But we could stay in the city, would only need one car, no monthly passes for the kids, etc.—which is a considerable advantage compared to the loan repayment—and overall, we would probably have more free time since we wouldn’t have to constantly drive the children to sports and other activities.
At the same time, one could argue a third option C): if we choose A, we could sell the property with the house there later and use the proceeds for option B. Then we could probably do everything in the city according to our wishes—and the final situation would be the same: instead of owning two rental homes, we would only have one, but in addition, a valuable house in the city. The only remaining problem would be finding a plot without unpleasant surprises…
Of course, I know this is ultimately our decision to make – but how would you approach it? Has anyone been in the same situation? Neither of us has ever lived in the countryside; what hidden costs might come up there that you wouldn’t have in the city?
Joedreck schrieb:
Would it be possible to divide the large plot outside the town and build on it?We wouldn’t want that, because then we’d lose a major advantage of having a large piece of land.
Curly schrieb:
How big is the city and how big is the village outside? A city can have 10,000 inhabitants or 1 million. That makes quite a difference.
Best regards,
SabineAbout 130,000 inhabitants (a university town with an above-average cultural offering) in the city, and 1,300 inhabitants in the village. The village has two bakeries and a commercial area with a regional supermarket, but the local sports club does not have youth sports. By car, however, you can reach a large sports complex within 10-15 minutes that offers almost everything: athletics, soccer, cycling, water sports, and more.
chand1986 schrieb:
It really depends on how you want to spend your free time.
Cycling, jogging, walking, foraging for mushrooms/wild plants, gardening, enjoying peace in the forest, DIY projects, etc.: COUNTRYSIDE
Going out to eat, bars, cinema, theatre, opera, museums—in general a larger consumer focus versus smaller activity focus: CITY
If you’re more the first type, the city is extremely annoying. The second type eventually gets fed up with travel times if living in the countryside.We’re type 1.5 – a bit of both. But going out to eat and drink regularly is off the table for now. Child 1 is just 1 year old and Child 2 is planned for 2022. That means it’ll be quite a while before we can really take advantage of that again.
Realistically, before the child arrived, we might have gone out to eat or to a bar about once a month. Cinema maybe once a year and theatre 1-2 times a year. Sports events 2-3 times a year. Museums and similar almost never. In other words, you could easily do all of that from the village – it’s just a question of whether you actually do.
On weekends we mostly visit friends or they visit us. No idea if that would change when everyone’s got several kids including older ones involved in sports clubs, and weekends can’t be planned as freely anymore.
Tassimat schrieb:
Definitely the city.
But I would always base it on the commute to work and the specific house, plot, and other factors. Better to move to the countryside than to live in a house like this:A small terraced house wouldn’t be an option for us either; we’d want to buy something new.
For those here who prefer the countryside and have kids: How busy are your children? I guess I would expect 2-3 sports/music/other activities per child per week.
Anyone for option C?
dankosos schrieb:
We wouldn’t want that, since it would mean losing a major advantage of a rural property.
Approximately 130,000 inhabitants (student city with an above-average cultural scene) in the town and 1,300 inhabitants in the village. The village has two bakeries and a commercial area with a regional supermarket, but the sports club doesn’t offer youth sports. However, by car you can reach a large sports center in 10-15 minutes, which has nearly everything: athletics, soccer, cycling, water sports, and more.
We are type 1.5 – a bit of everything. But regular dining out and drinking are off the table for now. Child 1 just turned 1 year old, and child 2 is planned for 2022. So it will be quite a while before we can really take advantage of that again.
Realistically, even before the child was born we went out to eat maybe once a month and went to a bar similarly. Cinema maybe once a year, theater 1-2 times a year. Sports events 2-3 times a year. Museums and similar hardly at all. Meaning: all of that could easily be done from the village – the question is whether we would actually do it.
On weekends, we mostly visit friends or have them visit us. Not sure if that will change when everyone has several children, including older ones involved in sports clubs, and weekends become less flexible.
A small terraced house would not be an option for us either; we would want to buy something new.
For those who are for option A and have children: how active are your kids? I think I would expect 2-3 sports/music/other activities per child per week.
No one for option C? For our 8-year-old daughter it is:
1-2 times per week horseback riding (in the countryside)
1 time per week music lessons (in the countryside)
We don’t miss anything from the city at all. If we want to go to Berlin, we just drive there on the weekend.
In the end, it’s always subjective.
In the situation described, especially considering the family, I would choose the countryside.
That said, not all countryside is the same. Being 8 km (5 miles) from a town of 130,000 inhabitants isn’t far at all. You just have to be careful that with urban growth, it doesn’t get absorbed into the larger city in the coming years.
And regarding the car: I believe that if we’re honest, most people who don’t live in a proper big city center (where there might be better public transport) will quite often use (or have to use) a car to drive their kids somewhere. Whether that takes 5 or 10 minutes really doesn’t make much difference.
It would be a different story if living in the countryside meant being 50 or 100 km (30 or 60 miles) away.
In this setup, my decision would always be in favor of the “countryside.” The reasons have already been mentioned several times by others.
In the situation described, especially considering the family, I would choose the countryside.
That said, not all countryside is the same. Being 8 km (5 miles) from a town of 130,000 inhabitants isn’t far at all. You just have to be careful that with urban growth, it doesn’t get absorbed into the larger city in the coming years.
And regarding the car: I believe that if we’re honest, most people who don’t live in a proper big city center (where there might be better public transport) will quite often use (or have to use) a car to drive their kids somewhere. Whether that takes 5 or 10 minutes really doesn’t make much difference.
It would be a different story if living in the countryside meant being 50 or 100 km (30 or 60 miles) away.
In this setup, my decision would always be in favor of the “countryside.” The reasons have already been mentioned several times by others.
1 course. Music lessons once a week. Walking alone
Additionally, as desired
Once a month, a reading and crafting afternoon during the winter season. Walking alone
Every 6-8 weeks, children's church with singing, reading, crafting, and playing (surprisingly little to do with church). Walking, mom has to accompany
Occasional horse riding at a friend’s or my cousin’s place
In spring, the swimming badge (“Seepferdchen”) is planned – by car
Next year, music lessons might be replaced by ballet (by car).
Offers range from infant classes (PEKiP) to English and karate within a 20 km (12 miles) radius. Additionally, holiday programs, tent theater, game weeks, and opportunities provided by outdoor play in the countryside. Climbing trees, feeding cows, falling into the creek, riding a balance bike on the quarter pipe, and so on.
Additionally, as desired
Once a month, a reading and crafting afternoon during the winter season. Walking alone
Every 6-8 weeks, children's church with singing, reading, crafting, and playing (surprisingly little to do with church). Walking, mom has to accompany
Occasional horse riding at a friend’s or my cousin’s place
In spring, the swimming badge (“Seepferdchen”) is planned – by car
Next year, music lessons might be replaced by ballet (by car).
Offers range from infant classes (PEKiP) to English and karate within a 20 km (12 miles) radius. Additionally, holiday programs, tent theater, game weeks, and opportunities provided by outdoor play in the countryside. Climbing trees, feeding cows, falling into the creek, riding a balance bike on the quarter pipe, and so on.
S
Smirnoff19833 Aug 2020 12:34You always have to consider what kind of person you are! Both options have their pros and cons.
It also depends on the age of the children. If they are at the party-going age, the city has many advantages. You don’t have to find a designated driver so the rest of the group can drink. On the other hand, we have many local festivals, club parties, etc. Life in the countryside is just different... but you don’t miss out on anything!
If you live in the countryside, you don’t go grocery shopping every other day. You have a pantry, and it is usually well stocked. We do have a supermarket nearby, but the selection is quite limited, so I regularly drive to a larger supermarket 2-3 times a month.
But there are also advantages like “fresh products directly from the producer.” We buy our meat from a small local farmer around the corner, raw milk directly from the dairy farmer, and so on... you can even find this in the OWL region (North NRW).
About one and a half years ago, we bought a building plot (over 1000 sqm (about 0.25 acres)) in a more rural area, but still only 8 km (5 miles) from the nearest larger district town. We will have a full-fiber optic (FTTH) connection there. The early downside of the plot was that there was no natural gas supply. Today that doesn’t matter, as in 3 1/2 years we will rely on geothermal energy for the new build (which is permitted by the authorities).
Currently, we live in a 15-years-old new development area on about 400 sqm (about 0.1 acres). Today, I wouldn’t choose such a small plot anymore. You don’t have much less work than with a ~1000 sqm (about 0.25 acres) plot (experience from my parents’ home). But with more than 1000 sqm (about 0.25 acres), you have the advantage of having some space between you and the neighbors. You can barbecue without the neighbor complaining that the smoke is drifting into their house. I can talk with guests without the neighbor overhearing everything as if they were sitting at the table... and so on.
Whether to choose a new build or an older property... we decided straight away on a new build. If you are handy and can do most of the work yourself, an older house can be worthwhile. But if you have to hire a tradesperson for 90% of the work, a new build can cost just as much as an existing property. Above all, no one really knows what has been done to the property in the last 50 years. There are many “DIY enthusiasts” who remove a wall without realizing it is load-bearing, cut electrical cables and just leave the wiring inside the wall, etc. Plus, you will never get the room layout exactly the way you want it. Also, the level of comfort is higher in a new build (underfloor heating, ventilation system...).
The biggest disadvantage of living in the countryside is being completely dependent on a car... public transport in rural areas is pretty much useless.
It also depends on the age of the children. If they are at the party-going age, the city has many advantages. You don’t have to find a designated driver so the rest of the group can drink. On the other hand, we have many local festivals, club parties, etc. Life in the countryside is just different... but you don’t miss out on anything!
If you live in the countryside, you don’t go grocery shopping every other day. You have a pantry, and it is usually well stocked. We do have a supermarket nearby, but the selection is quite limited, so I regularly drive to a larger supermarket 2-3 times a month.
But there are also advantages like “fresh products directly from the producer.” We buy our meat from a small local farmer around the corner, raw milk directly from the dairy farmer, and so on... you can even find this in the OWL region (North NRW).
About one and a half years ago, we bought a building plot (over 1000 sqm (about 0.25 acres)) in a more rural area, but still only 8 km (5 miles) from the nearest larger district town. We will have a full-fiber optic (FTTH) connection there. The early downside of the plot was that there was no natural gas supply. Today that doesn’t matter, as in 3 1/2 years we will rely on geothermal energy for the new build (which is permitted by the authorities).
Currently, we live in a 15-years-old new development area on about 400 sqm (about 0.1 acres). Today, I wouldn’t choose such a small plot anymore. You don’t have much less work than with a ~1000 sqm (about 0.25 acres) plot (experience from my parents’ home). But with more than 1000 sqm (about 0.25 acres), you have the advantage of having some space between you and the neighbors. You can barbecue without the neighbor complaining that the smoke is drifting into their house. I can talk with guests without the neighbor overhearing everything as if they were sitting at the table... and so on.
Whether to choose a new build or an older property... we decided straight away on a new build. If you are handy and can do most of the work yourself, an older house can be worthwhile. But if you have to hire a tradesperson for 90% of the work, a new build can cost just as much as an existing property. Above all, no one really knows what has been done to the property in the last 50 years. There are many “DIY enthusiasts” who remove a wall without realizing it is load-bearing, cut electrical cables and just leave the wiring inside the wall, etc. Plus, you will never get the room layout exactly the way you want it. Also, the level of comfort is higher in a new build (underfloor heating, ventilation system...).
The biggest disadvantage of living in the countryside is being completely dependent on a car... public transport in rural areas is pretty much useless.
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