ᐅ Is it possible to expand an air-to-water heat pump system?
Created on: 1 Dec 2011 21:39
S
sevenofnineS
sevenofnine1 Dec 2011 21:39Hello,
my husband and I are viewing a loft apartment (140 sqm (1507 sq ft)) in a five-family house this weekend. The building dates back to 2009, and the other four units are finished and already occupied. The developer went bankrupt and left the loft apartment in a shell condition.
What I know so far is that the heating system is an air-to-water heat pump with underfloor heating. The building is constructed with expanded clay / Estelit.
Is this building material suitable for use with an air-to-water heat pump?
Also, I have read that the electricity costs are supposed to be very high. If that is the case, can we add another type of heating system to reduce electricity expenses?
What should we pay attention to when we meet the current developer on Saturday? I’m really overwhelmed after researching this topic.
Best regards,
sevenofnine
my husband and I are viewing a loft apartment (140 sqm (1507 sq ft)) in a five-family house this weekend. The building dates back to 2009, and the other four units are finished and already occupied. The developer went bankrupt and left the loft apartment in a shell condition.
What I know so far is that the heating system is an air-to-water heat pump with underfloor heating. The building is constructed with expanded clay / Estelit.
Is this building material suitable for use with an air-to-water heat pump?
Also, I have read that the electricity costs are supposed to be very high. If that is the case, can we add another type of heating system to reduce electricity expenses?
What should we pay attention to when we meet the current developer on Saturday? I’m really overwhelmed after researching this topic.
Best regards,
sevenofnine
Hello,
Very simple: ask to see all calculation documents for the system and have them checked by an HVAC engineer.
- Ventilation calculation, if there is a controlled residential ventilation system with or without heat recovery
- Heat load calculation according to DIN 12831, => standard heat load, room heat loads
- Heating surface dimensioning (underfloor heating)
- Pipe hydraulics
If none of these documents exist, the risk of having a poorly installed system is quite high!
Furthermore, it is unusual that there is no common heating plant for all residential units!
Best regards.
sevenofnine schrieb:This question does not really apply, as there is no direct connection here! The decisive factor is always the overall system of the space to be heated—building envelope, climate location, occupant behavior, etc.
...The house dates back to 2009, ....
What I know so far is that an air-to-water heat pump with underfloor heating is used for heating. The building is made of expanded clay/Estelit.
Is this building material actually compatible with an air-to-water heat pump?
sevenofnine schrieb:That is relative. Well-designed air heat pump systems achieve annual performance factors around 3.5. Poorly, incorrectly, or insufficiently designed systems (unfortunately quite common) only reach annual performance factors of about 2 to 2.7 during operation, resulting in correspondingly higher energy costs.
...Also, I’ve read that the electricity costs are supposed to be very high.
sevenofnine schrieb:
...What should we pay attention to when we meet the current developer on Saturday?
Very simple: ask to see all calculation documents for the system and have them checked by an HVAC engineer.
- Ventilation calculation, if there is a controlled residential ventilation system with or without heat recovery
- Heat load calculation according to DIN 12831, => standard heat load, room heat loads
- Heating surface dimensioning (underfloor heating)
- Pipe hydraulics
If none of these documents exist, the risk of having a poorly installed system is quite high!
Furthermore, it is unusual that there is no common heating plant for all residential units!
Best regards.
S
sevenofnine2 Dec 2011 13:20Hello construction expert,
by expanded clay I meant Estepor wall elements from the company Estelit. In my research, this building material is said to have good thermal insulation properties.
@ €uro
Thank you very much for your answer. What do you mean by user behavior? I like it warm, 20°C (68°F) feels too cold for me, and I work from home. So the heating would be on all day. Would the heating costs be too high then?
There has to be a shared heating system. We first looked around the entire development to see if we like the area. We can already say yes to that, and when I called the responsible staff member, she told me that the heating system is underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump. Tomorrow we are meeting there to look at the house.
It is already completed, and some owners have already moved in last year. The first developer went bankrupt, and the current one is basically continuing to build the rest. That means the penthouse apartment is still in the shell stage, and we can still freely plan the interior walls, etc. Only the heating system is fixed.
Would it be possible to install a wood stove? Does something like that work with an air-to-water heat pump? We will definitely need to check if it’s even allowed or if other owners object to it.
Best regards
sevenofnine
by expanded clay I meant Estepor wall elements from the company Estelit. In my research, this building material is said to have good thermal insulation properties.
@ €uro
Thank you very much for your answer. What do you mean by user behavior? I like it warm, 20°C (68°F) feels too cold for me, and I work from home. So the heating would be on all day. Would the heating costs be too high then?
There has to be a shared heating system. We first looked around the entire development to see if we like the area. We can already say yes to that, and when I called the responsible staff member, she told me that the heating system is underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump. Tomorrow we are meeting there to look at the house.
It is already completed, and some owners have already moved in last year. The first developer went bankrupt, and the current one is basically continuing to build the rest. That means the penthouse apartment is still in the shell stage, and we can still freely plan the interior walls, etc. Only the heating system is fixed.
Would it be possible to install a wood stove? Does something like that work with an air-to-water heat pump? We will definitely need to check if it’s even allowed or if other owners object to it.
Best regards
sevenofnine
S
sevenofnine5 Dec 2011 11:19Good morning!
Over the weekend, we viewed the apartment. It is actually very nice, but the interior finishing is our responsibility following the insolvency of the developer.
The air-to-water heat pump is a Siemens LI26ML Type 2WP3 167-25, with an additional output option of 3, 6, or 9 kW. Its operating range is from minus 20 to plus 35 degrees Celsius (minus 4 to 95°F) with an electric heating element. I researched online and the technical datasheet states a COP of 3.1. Isn’t that too low?
So far, we have only received the construction description, a list of remaining interior work with cost estimates, the minutes from the owners’ meetings, the service charge statement, and the budget plan.
The building was constructed according to the 2002 Energy Saving Ordinance. It is built on a slope and faces south in its broad orientation. According to other owners, the heating costs in recent years have been very low.
Until now, the heating costs for the entire building (2 garden-level apartments with 60m (200ft)², 2 upper-floor apartments with 109m (360ft)², and the unoccupied penthouse with 139m (457ft)²) have been 4,832 euros per year in total.
I am still waiting for the heat demand calculation, etc. When I asked about it this morning, the lady I spoke to didn’t really seem knowledgeable.
Are Siemens pumps reliable?
Best regards,
sevenofnine
Over the weekend, we viewed the apartment. It is actually very nice, but the interior finishing is our responsibility following the insolvency of the developer.
The air-to-water heat pump is a Siemens LI26ML Type 2WP3 167-25, with an additional output option of 3, 6, or 9 kW. Its operating range is from minus 20 to plus 35 degrees Celsius (minus 4 to 95°F) with an electric heating element. I researched online and the technical datasheet states a COP of 3.1. Isn’t that too low?
So far, we have only received the construction description, a list of remaining interior work with cost estimates, the minutes from the owners’ meetings, the service charge statement, and the budget plan.
The building was constructed according to the 2002 Energy Saving Ordinance. It is built on a slope and faces south in its broad orientation. According to other owners, the heating costs in recent years have been very low.
Until now, the heating costs for the entire building (2 garden-level apartments with 60m (200ft)², 2 upper-floor apartments with 109m (360ft)², and the unoccupied penthouse with 139m (457ft)²) have been 4,832 euros per year in total.
I am still waiting for the heat demand calculation, etc. When I asked about it this morning, the lady I spoke to didn’t really seem knowledgeable.
Are Siemens pumps reliable?
Best regards,
sevenofnine
sevenofnine schrieb:
... and the unoccupied penthouse with 139 sqm (1,495 sq ft) at 4832 Euro per year for everyone. Which is likely to change significantly! 😉Also, are the figures adjusted for climate? How were these numbers verified? Heating only or including hot water as well?
sevenofnine schrieb:
... I’m still waiting for the heat demand calculation, etc. When I asked this morning, that lady didn’t really seem to know much about it. Anything else would have surprised me a lot. 😉sevenofnine schrieb:
... Are Siemens pumps reliable? Reliable is relative! However, this device cannot modulate. A COP of 3.1, probably at A2/35, is also relative, since the entire performance curve (annual performance factor) is relevant for actual consumption.Best regards
S
sevenofnine5 Dec 2011 21:15Dear €uro,
thank you for the quick and knowledgeable reply 🙂
I have found some items that still need clarification in the building specifications and the invoices, so I have now sent her a list of questions. I’m curious to see if I will receive the technical data, annual performance factor, etc.
Best regards
sevenofnine
thank you for the quick and knowledgeable reply 🙂
I have found some items that still need clarification in the building specifications and the invoices, so I have now sent her a list of questions. I’m curious to see if I will receive the technical data, annual performance factor, etc.
Best regards
sevenofnine
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