ᐅ No building plot available due to new EU local residency model?
Created on: 11 Nov 2017 21:49
H
Hanneshickel
Hello everyone,
We are a family of two who have been searching for a building plot east of Munich, about 50-70km (30-45 miles) away, near the upcoming A94 highway, for several years. We have applied multiple times to local municipalities near us for a plot under the local resident model, but each time we were rejected due to too few points or because our equity or income was too high. We have too few points because we don’t have children. Since we have been searching for a long time, we have saved around €130,000 (about $140,000) and can save about €15,000 (about $16,000) more each year. However, here you are not allowed to have more savings than the plot would cost (mostly around €150-200/sqm (about $140-190/sqft), so approximately €120,000 (about $130,000)). Also, you are not allowed to earn more than the municipal average, which as a couple is about €80,000 (about $85,000) gross. We, however, earn almost double that gross, so together we have a net income of around €6,500 (about $7,000) per month (both earn roughly the same).
Therefore, our only option is to buy a plot privately. But prices here are extremely high compared to municipal land. We are talking about €500-700/sqm (about $460-650/sqft), so quickly around €300,000 (about $320,000) just for the plot. Then I estimate construction costs of about €400,000-500,000 (about $430,000-540,000) for a 160 sqm (about 1,700 sqft) house with a basement, double garage, and a simple building shape. That means approximately €700,000-800,000 (about $750,000-860,000) in total.
We don’t feel confident financing this amount, as it would easily mean paying over €2,000 (about $2,150) per month for the next 30 years. If one of us takes time off work due to having children, then there would be too little left for living expenses. Or is it now normal to finance this much for a house? My pain threshold is currently around €1,800 (about $1,950) per month for the mortgage.
What do you think?
What other options do we have to get affordable building land?
Or should we forget about building and only look for existing houses?
Thank you and best regards,
Hannes
We are a family of two who have been searching for a building plot east of Munich, about 50-70km (30-45 miles) away, near the upcoming A94 highway, for several years. We have applied multiple times to local municipalities near us for a plot under the local resident model, but each time we were rejected due to too few points or because our equity or income was too high. We have too few points because we don’t have children. Since we have been searching for a long time, we have saved around €130,000 (about $140,000) and can save about €15,000 (about $16,000) more each year. However, here you are not allowed to have more savings than the plot would cost (mostly around €150-200/sqm (about $140-190/sqft), so approximately €120,000 (about $130,000)). Also, you are not allowed to earn more than the municipal average, which as a couple is about €80,000 (about $85,000) gross. We, however, earn almost double that gross, so together we have a net income of around €6,500 (about $7,000) per month (both earn roughly the same).
Therefore, our only option is to buy a plot privately. But prices here are extremely high compared to municipal land. We are talking about €500-700/sqm (about $460-650/sqft), so quickly around €300,000 (about $320,000) just for the plot. Then I estimate construction costs of about €400,000-500,000 (about $430,000-540,000) for a 160 sqm (about 1,700 sqft) house with a basement, double garage, and a simple building shape. That means approximately €700,000-800,000 (about $750,000-860,000) in total.
We don’t feel confident financing this amount, as it would easily mean paying over €2,000 (about $2,150) per month for the next 30 years. If one of us takes time off work due to having children, then there would be too little left for living expenses. Or is it now normal to finance this much for a house? My pain threshold is currently around €1,800 (about $1,950) per month for the mortgage.
What do you think?
What other options do we have to get affordable building land?
Or should we forget about building and only look for existing houses?
Thank you and best regards,
Hannes
H
Hanneshickel13 Nov 2017 19:28ruppsn schrieb:
I won’t go into detail about commuting, as you have already covered everything necessary from my point of view.
I had already written something about the main topic further up, but maybe it got overlooked.
First, the bad news: yes, it CAN definitely happen. If not, there are only a few options, even if I repeat myself:
- Hire a dedicated real estate agent
- Visit (new development) areas, look for vacant plots, ask neighbors who owns the land
- Alternatively, instead of asking neighbors: find the owner through the building authority / a notary office
- Once the owner is found, approach them appropriately (we wrote a handwritten letter on decent paper and dropped it off)
- Ask in local clubs, volunteer fire departments
- Possibly look for a plot with an existing building, factor in demolition costs
- Post notices with a phone number to tear off at local supermarkets or bakeries
- There are reportedly some utterly tactless people who search obituaries—definitely a method I would never use
Even though many of these methods are not very promising, one thing is certain: the situation won’t improve if you don’t take any action.
Alternatively: reconsider the situation fundamentally. Is building really necessary? Perhaps consider instead
- Renting an apartment
- Buying an existing property and (partial) renovating it
- Waiting about 5 more years until the first follow-up loans expire
As harsh as it sounds, forcing things isn’t likely to work—unfortunately, it takes a lot of luck… and I wish you that luck, because I know your situation all too well—just about 200km (125 miles) north of you.Thanks, those are some good tips that I will follow up on.
Tego12 schrieb:
No one says that commuting is better than not commuting... it’s just not a complete waste of time. My job (and that of many others) consists of 70%-80% meetings throughout the day. I can usually handle one-on-one conversations just as well from home, lying in the garden, or driving in the car... it doesn’t really matter. Are most people here still living in the last millennium? Remote work is demanded everywhere, but talking on the phone while driving is not allowed? Modern cars are fully connected, fully online, all voice controlled, with good quality (unless you’re somewhere very rural), ...
.My job consists almost entirely of meetings. For the vast majority of these, I need supporting materials (counts, results, charts) on a screen or printed out. I don’t have that in the car. Another big part is personnel meetings, for which I need at least video, since a serious employee discussion is not effective over the phone and does not do justice to the employee.
Over the phone, I can generally only listen to meetings that are purely informational, such as quarterly results, investor calls, etc. Most of this information can also be sent as a PDF by email, so I have stopped attending those calls due to time inefficiency.
What remains are a few small one-on-one arrangements with my assistant or colleagues from my own department. For all other calls, you at least need to take notes.
Ok, my last post to you here...
Ok, I’ll try to clarify why I used myself as an example. It was meant to refute your claim
Normally, one counterexample is enough to disprove such a general statement. That’s what I gave you with MYSELF. It wasn’t primarily about me specifically — I assumed that was clear.
I have read everything from you — and regarding the mentioned post #59, all I can say is: unfortunately.
I would like to explain this because, contrary to what you claim,
the opposite is actually true. Alright, let me give you a few examples from the referenced post that imply otherwise:
Is it not arrogant, for instance, to criticize a personal savings rate derived from someone’s individual life circumstances? You apply your own standards to judge and condemn those of another whose situation you do not know — that is arrogance.
Okay, that’s fine, but just a few lines later you judge his behavior and make a claim about the affordability of land — without having any idea what the local conditions are (in this case in the Munich area, for example, land prices above 1000 EUR/sqm (roughly $110/sqft)) — followed by a remark about being “down-to-earth,” implying he isn’t:
That’s where you really cross the line. “People like you,” no arrogance at all, right?
...or maybe here?
Because that’s exactly how it comes across, as if you are the authority who decides that. Nouveau riche are certainly not automatically academics, even in Munich. And the salary is quite average for two people who, for example, studied in a technical field — and there are many tech companies in Munich. So please keep things in perspective and remove the envy glasses. Yes, many people have less available financially, but is the original poster (OP) to blame because others did not study and get well-paid jobs? Sure, that might seem unfair, but it’s certainly not the OP’s fault. For that reason, he has every right — and it is not complaining at a high level — to view the situation from his perspective. Or should all your whining and fuss about some things always be dismissed with the argument that you’re “complaining at a high level” because, unfortunately, there are others who have even less than you do? It’s fine to say he has a solid and fairly comfortable position, okay — but “You belong to the nouveau riche” definitely sounds disparaging and arrogant...
At this point, even a neutral observer would find it difficult NOT to call this arrogance — at least that’s my view:
“...earned more than you...” — that’s not arrogance? Well, I don’t know... Aside from the fact that I find it questionable to claim that about someone you don’t know, on what basis do you determine who “earned” what? By salary? For which the OP and his wife each pay the top tax rate? Do you know if, for example, the OP cares for relatives himself, is socially engaged in other ways, and thus perhaps contributes more to society than couple X or Y, who obtained land through a locals-only model and otherwise don’t care about their fellow human beings?
People just nurture their “enemy images,” don’t they? Salary in an average-paying industry, unfortunately higher than your own — that just can’t be “earned.” Cross-industry wage injustices are not the OP’s fault...
And finally, this:
Nope, I’m not going to let you silence me, because you are not in a position to do so....
ypg schrieb:
Me, me, me...
I don’t recall having answered you.
Ok, I’ll try to clarify why I used myself as an example. It was meant to refute your claim
ypg schrieb:
No one needs a mental half hour between private life and work. That’s been made up.
Normally, one counterexample is enough to disprove such a general statement. That’s what I gave you with MYSELF. It wasn’t primarily about me specifically — I assumed that was clear.
ypg schrieb:
Maybe read everything I wrote or remain silent!?! For example, post #59, where I talk about commuting.
I have read everything from you — and regarding the mentioned post #59, all I can say is: unfortunately.
I would like to explain this because, contrary to what you claim,
ypg schrieb:
I am not arrogant
the opposite is actually true. Alright, let me give you a few examples from the referenced post that imply otherwise:
ypg schrieb:
What is being criticized here, if anything, is your proposed savings rate.
Is it not arrogant, for instance, to criticize a personal savings rate derived from someone’s individual life circumstances? You apply your own standards to judge and condemn those of another whose situation you do not know — that is arrogance.
ypg schrieb:
I don’t know the wage levels in Bavaria/Munich.
Okay, that’s fine, but just a few lines later you judge his behavior and make a claim about the affordability of land — without having any idea what the local conditions are (in this case in the Munich area, for example, land prices above 1000 EUR/sqm (roughly $110/sqft)) — followed by a remark about being “down-to-earth,” implying he isn’t:
ypg schrieb:
And yes, you’re complaining at a high level. You could easily finance a very expensive plot of land within 2-3 years, and if your house plans are realistic and sensible, you can build normally and confidently like most of us do.
That’s where you really cross the line. “People like you,” no arrogance at all, right?
ypg schrieb:
This points system is precisely designed to filter out people like you.
...or maybe here?
ypg schrieb:
You belong to the nouveau riche.
Because that’s exactly how it comes across, as if you are the authority who decides that. Nouveau riche are certainly not automatically academics, even in Munich. And the salary is quite average for two people who, for example, studied in a technical field — and there are many tech companies in Munich. So please keep things in perspective and remove the envy glasses. Yes, many people have less available financially, but is the original poster (OP) to blame because others did not study and get well-paid jobs? Sure, that might seem unfair, but it’s certainly not the OP’s fault. For that reason, he has every right — and it is not complaining at a high level — to view the situation from his perspective. Or should all your whining and fuss about some things always be dismissed with the argument that you’re “complaining at a high level” because, unfortunately, there are others who have even less than you do? It’s fine to say he has a solid and fairly comfortable position, okay — but “You belong to the nouveau riche” definitely sounds disparaging and arrogant...
At this point, even a neutral observer would find it difficult NOT to call this arrogance — at least that’s my view:
ypg schrieb:
And just because there are people with a good salary like you doesn’t mean that others with less or higher points deserve a house any less. No one is being favored; rather, it’s more likely made possible for someone who earned a cheaper plot than you.
“...earned more than you...” — that’s not arrogance? Well, I don’t know... Aside from the fact that I find it questionable to claim that about someone you don’t know, on what basis do you determine who “earned” what? By salary? For which the OP and his wife each pay the top tax rate? Do you know if, for example, the OP cares for relatives himself, is socially engaged in other ways, and thus perhaps contributes more to society than couple X or Y, who obtained land through a locals-only model and otherwise don’t care about their fellow human beings?
People just nurture their “enemy images,” don’t they? Salary in an average-paying industry, unfortunately higher than your own — that just can’t be “earned.” Cross-industry wage injustices are not the OP’s fault...
And finally, this:
ypg schrieb:
You unfortunately see yourselves as victims, but you are not. Just because you have your values (credit limit) doesn’t mean your view is the right one.
ypg schrieb:
Otherwise, be quiet
Nope, I’m not going to let you silence me, because you are not in a position to do so....
R
readytorumble13 Nov 2017 20:1577.willo schrieb:
My job consists almost entirely of meetings. For the vast majority, I need support materials (counts, results, charts) visible on a screen or printed out. I don’t have that available in the car. Another major part is personnel meetings, for which I need at least video, since a serious employee discussion isn’t possible or fair to the employee over the phone.
Over the phone, I can basically only listen to meetings that are purely informational, like quarterly results, investor calls, etc. Most of this information can also be sent as PDFs by email, so I’ve eliminated those from my calls due to wasted time.
There remain a few small bilateral arrangements with my assistant or colleagues from my own department. For all other calls, you at least have to take notes.Yes, you’re quite a sharp one. That’s what you meant to say, right?
If my post comes across to you as strange or even presumptuous, I can understand that. However, I quoted the OP and deliberately used his words in my reply.
I don’t have any personal standard for savings rates at all. With my sentence, I simply summarized what previous posts generally criticized.
Yep! This is all based on what the OP wrote. Here, I have highlighted what my words are based on. It’s not my style or way of speaking to refer to the newly rich. Therefore, I stand by my opinion that the OP sees himself as a victim: he talks about punishment and feels unfairly treated, even though he is clearly in a position that allows him to acquire land without subsidies such as this local resident preferential scheme.
And yes: I believe that OP Hannes misunderstands his own situation.
How to find land on the open market I can only answer regionally. Apparently, things work differently in and around Munich than in the north—here, there are always some plots available for sale... if necessary, leasehold land works as well.
ypg schrieb:
What is being criticized here, if at all, is your intended savings rate.
ruppsn schrieb:
Is it not presumptuous, for example, to criticize a personal savings rate derived from individual life circumstances? You apply your own standards to judge and evaluate someone else’s situation, which you don’t know—that is presumptuous.
I don’t have any personal standard for savings rates at all. With my sentence, I simply summarized what previous posts generally criticized.
ruppsn schrieb:
But here you really take the cake. "People like you," no presumptuousness, right?
ruppsn schrieb:
Newly rich people in Munich are certainly not necessarily academics. And the income is for two people who, for example, live in...
Yep! This is all based on what the OP wrote. Here, I have highlighted what my words are based on. It’s not my style or way of speaking to refer to the newly rich. Therefore, I stand by my opinion that the OP sees himself as a victim: he talks about punishment and feels unfairly treated, even though he is clearly in a position that allows him to acquire land without subsidies such as this local resident preferential scheme.
Hanneshickel schrieb:
I just find it strange that families with little money and low income are basically enticed to build, even though the risk is already very high if the interest rate rises...
And people who could afford it easily without risk have to compete on the open market for the few plots together with all the newly rich and the heirs.
You are basically punished for having saved and having a good job after spending many years at school and university...
And yes: I believe that OP Hannes misunderstands his own situation.
How to find land on the open market I can only answer regionally. Apparently, things work differently in and around Munich than in the north—here, there are always some plots available for sale... if necessary, leasehold land works as well.
How nice, some soap opera for the evening, thanks.
Maybe we could finally end this silly "what can I work on in the car or not" discussion here?
Thanks.
And Ruppsn, we got that you don’t like Ypg, that’s enough, right?
By the way, I don’t find it arrogant – calling it nouveau riche might be a bit exaggerated.
But the criticism regarding the savings rate is realistic.
Either the original poster has a wasteful lifestyle – which would also be fine, but if you want to build a house, you should limit that. Both don’t really work together, at least not in the greater Munich area.
Or they have other mandatory expenses – which is fine too, but that severely limits wealth building, including the possibility of a necessary loan.
Maybe we could finally end this silly "what can I work on in the car or not" discussion here?
Thanks.
And Ruppsn, we got that you don’t like Ypg, that’s enough, right?
By the way, I don’t find it arrogant – calling it nouveau riche might be a bit exaggerated.
But the criticism regarding the savings rate is realistic.
Either the original poster has a wasteful lifestyle – which would also be fine, but if you want to build a house, you should limit that. Both don’t really work together, at least not in the greater Munich area.
Or they have other mandatory expenses – which is fine too, but that severely limits wealth building, including the possibility of a necessary loan.