ᐅ New Construction + Exhaust Air Heat Pump According to Provider, Is a Trench Collector Affordable?
Created on: 13 Mar 2016 16:19
E
expose
Hello,
I am currently working on a new construction project that is approaching the final stages, except for the heating system. Originally, a gas boiler with solar support for domestic hot water was planned. This would make the house comply with the KfW 70 energy standard. It is a bungalow with 125 m² (1345 sq ft) of living space (4 rooms, kitchen integrated into the living area, bathroom, toilet, utility room) on an 835 m² (8980 sq ft) plot.
The builder has now proposed an exhaust air heat pump with decentralized ventilation. The additional costs, including extra insulation of the floor slab to meet the KfW 55 standard, are around 6,000–7,000 euros. In principle, I like the idea of being independent from fossil fuels, but after looking closely at such a heating system, I am not completely convinced by the concept. Especially the ventilation seemed questionable to me, as there was a noticeable cold draft and the rooms felt somewhat stuffy overall.
The builder himself has no experience with these heat pumps yet but plans to install several in the future.
During my research on exhaust air heat pumps, I also came across heat pump technology with ground loop collectors and find this concept much more interesting.
The fact is, the extra cost compared to the gas boiler, about 6,000–7,000 euros, represents the upper limit of my budget. It must not get more expensive.
I am a bit unsure about how to proceed. How can I determine whether a ground loop collector would be suitable, and whether it would fit my budget? Are there possibly other heat pumps with external units that might be an option? Or could my concerns about the exhaust air heat pump be unfounded?
Thank you in advance.
I am currently working on a new construction project that is approaching the final stages, except for the heating system. Originally, a gas boiler with solar support for domestic hot water was planned. This would make the house comply with the KfW 70 energy standard. It is a bungalow with 125 m² (1345 sq ft) of living space (4 rooms, kitchen integrated into the living area, bathroom, toilet, utility room) on an 835 m² (8980 sq ft) plot.
The builder has now proposed an exhaust air heat pump with decentralized ventilation. The additional costs, including extra insulation of the floor slab to meet the KfW 55 standard, are around 6,000–7,000 euros. In principle, I like the idea of being independent from fossil fuels, but after looking closely at such a heating system, I am not completely convinced by the concept. Especially the ventilation seemed questionable to me, as there was a noticeable cold draft and the rooms felt somewhat stuffy overall.
The builder himself has no experience with these heat pumps yet but plans to install several in the future.
During my research on exhaust air heat pumps, I also came across heat pump technology with ground loop collectors and find this concept much more interesting.
The fact is, the extra cost compared to the gas boiler, about 6,000–7,000 euros, represents the upper limit of my budget. It must not get more expensive.
I am a bit unsure about how to proceed. How can I determine whether a ground loop collector would be suitable, and whether it would fit my budget? Are there possibly other heat pumps with external units that might be an option? Or could my concerns about the exhaust air heat pump be unfounded?
Thank you in advance.
Hi Bauexperte,
once again, an invitation for you to come and listen in our neighborhood...
Those things remain annoying noise sources. In a thread, you once listed the maximum allowed noise emissions in residential areas.
I just looked them up again:
Daytime Nighttime
Core, village, and mixed-use areas 60 dB(A) 45 dB(A)
General residential areas 55 dB(A) 40 dB(A)
Pure residential areas 50 dB(A) 35 dB(A)
It may even be true that the split units comply with these limits, but the values are insanely high—at least for anyone who still has decent hearing. To be able to sleep with an open window at a 40 dB(A) emission level, one would probably have to be partially deaf.
For comparison, I’m currently sitting in an office on the first floor by a heavily trafficked six-lane road with 1980s double-glazed windows and a loud ventilation system (air conditioning, windows closed). In the office, the noise level fluctuates during total silence among colleagues (almost no one is here today) between 40 dB(A) (just cars passing) and 45 dB(A) (a truck driving by). And I’m supposed to accept that at night in a residential area?
I also fully agree that there is a connection between quality (equally quiet) and price. However, since many houses are built with a developer or general contractor (GC), usually the cheapest systems are installed by default. I wouldn’t do it any differently as a GC either. And most homebuilders who manage their own installations probably don’t really care and just set the units so they themselves can’t hear them. But then the neighbors have to enjoy the noise…
I would be in favor of a law forcing every manufacturer and installer of these units to also install one in front of their own bedroom window at home. That might actually bring some change…
Best regards,
Andreas
once again, an invitation for you to come and listen in our neighborhood...
Bauexperte schrieb:
If only the cheapest offer is awarded the contract: yes. Otherwise, I would really be glad if these "condition descriptions" of a split system were finally dismissed where they belong: the realm of myths
Those things remain annoying noise sources. In a thread, you once listed the maximum allowed noise emissions in residential areas.
I just looked them up again:
Daytime Nighttime
Core, village, and mixed-use areas 60 dB(A) 45 dB(A)
General residential areas 55 dB(A) 40 dB(A)
Pure residential areas 50 dB(A) 35 dB(A)
It may even be true that the split units comply with these limits, but the values are insanely high—at least for anyone who still has decent hearing. To be able to sleep with an open window at a 40 dB(A) emission level, one would probably have to be partially deaf.
For comparison, I’m currently sitting in an office on the first floor by a heavily trafficked six-lane road with 1980s double-glazed windows and a loud ventilation system (air conditioning, windows closed). In the office, the noise level fluctuates during total silence among colleagues (almost no one is here today) between 40 dB(A) (just cars passing) and 45 dB(A) (a truck driving by). And I’m supposed to accept that at night in a residential area?
I also fully agree that there is a connection between quality (equally quiet) and price. However, since many houses are built with a developer or general contractor (GC), usually the cheapest systems are installed by default. I wouldn’t do it any differently as a GC either. And most homebuilders who manage their own installations probably don’t really care and just set the units so they themselves can’t hear them. But then the neighbors have to enjoy the noise…
I would be in favor of a law forcing every manufacturer and installer of these units to also install one in front of their own bedroom window at home. That might actually bring some change…
Best regards,
Andreas
B
Bauexperte24 Mar 2016 14:25Hello Andreas,
On my next visit to Straubing, I might drop by... if Schwabach happens to be on the way.
Since you always say that 40 dB is loud, I checked with RWE for a quick reference:
**[...] For comparison: leaves rustle at about 10 decibels, breathing sounds reach 25 decibels, birds chirp at around 50 decibels.
Many appliance manufacturers are now paying more attention to the noise levels of their devices. For example, some new washing machines that used to reach up to 78 decibels during the spin cycle now wash clothes at only 45 to 50 decibels – which is roughly the volume of normal conversation. [...|
There are also many other appliances available today as "quiet" models. Blenders with sound insulation now sometimes reach just 80 decibels. Older models easily get up to 93 decibels, which is as loud as a motorcycle. New vacuum cleaners now operate at around 69 decibels, similar to the noise of a car passing by at ten meters (about 33 feet). Refrigerators nowadays only produce about 34 decibels. That’s about as loud as a ticking clock or a whispered conversation and is a real improvement, especially in open-plan kitchens. Modern dishwashers operate at around 38 to 39 decibels. Still loud are range hoods. The fan especially causes constant noise while cooking. Average units produce 67 to 70 decibels, about as loud as a vacuum cleaner, a car, or a busy street. New, well-designed units do the same job at only 58 to 60 decibels – comparable to typical office noise. Some even reach just 51 decibels, which is about as loud as soft background music.
Of course, this assumes that every household uses only the latest generation of appliances, which – to be honest – I find unlikely; we are talking about a considerable expense. Against the background of these figures, which can easily be extended to include our surrounding noises (how many dB does a snorer actually produce?), I *personally* do not find 40 dB loud. However, everyone has different tolerance levels for what they find acceptable or not. Therefore, I think it is pointless to argue about noise and its reduction to "x" decibels; we are unlikely to reach a consensus.
**Source: RWE Magazine
Best regards, Bauexperte
andimann schrieb:
Hi Bauexperte,
another invitation for you to come and listen to it in our area...
On my next visit to Straubing, I might drop by... if Schwabach happens to be on the way.
Since you always say that 40 dB is loud, I checked with RWE for a quick reference:
**[...] For comparison: leaves rustle at about 10 decibels, breathing sounds reach 25 decibels, birds chirp at around 50 decibels.
Many appliance manufacturers are now paying more attention to the noise levels of their devices. For example, some new washing machines that used to reach up to 78 decibels during the spin cycle now wash clothes at only 45 to 50 decibels – which is roughly the volume of normal conversation. [...|
There are also many other appliances available today as "quiet" models. Blenders with sound insulation now sometimes reach just 80 decibels. Older models easily get up to 93 decibels, which is as loud as a motorcycle. New vacuum cleaners now operate at around 69 decibels, similar to the noise of a car passing by at ten meters (about 33 feet). Refrigerators nowadays only produce about 34 decibels. That’s about as loud as a ticking clock or a whispered conversation and is a real improvement, especially in open-plan kitchens. Modern dishwashers operate at around 38 to 39 decibels. Still loud are range hoods. The fan especially causes constant noise while cooking. Average units produce 67 to 70 decibels, about as loud as a vacuum cleaner, a car, or a busy street. New, well-designed units do the same job at only 58 to 60 decibels – comparable to typical office noise. Some even reach just 51 decibels, which is about as loud as soft background music.
Of course, this assumes that every household uses only the latest generation of appliances, which – to be honest – I find unlikely; we are talking about a considerable expense. Against the background of these figures, which can easily be extended to include our surrounding noises (how many dB does a snorer actually produce?), I *personally* do not find 40 dB loud. However, everyone has different tolerance levels for what they find acceptable or not. Therefore, I think it is pointless to argue about noise and its reduction to "x" decibels; we are unlikely to reach a consensus.
**Source: RWE Magazine
Best regards, Bauexperte
Hi Bauexperte,
please don’t take this the wrong way, but this time you’re definitely on thin ice. You yourself write in your comparisons:
Laundry noise at 45 to 50 decibels – which is about the volume of a normal conversation.
But 40 to 45 decibels is more like the sound level of a quiet conversation between two people right outside your open bedroom window: And you can sleep through that?
The hearing aid battery must be dead… SCNR
And yes, I have a fairly good understanding of noise levels and how they are measured according to DIN standards and all that. Part of my job is also designing workplaces in the facilities I plan and handling any discussions with clients about noise levels, what is acceptable, how to reduce them, etc.
Best regards,
Andreas
please don’t take this the wrong way, but this time you’re definitely on thin ice. You yourself write in your comparisons:
Laundry noise at 45 to 50 decibels – which is about the volume of a normal conversation.
But 40 to 45 decibels is more like the sound level of a quiet conversation between two people right outside your open bedroom window: And you can sleep through that?
The hearing aid battery must be dead… SCNR
And yes, I have a fairly good understanding of noise levels and how they are measured according to DIN standards and all that. Part of my job is also designing workplaces in the facilities I plan and handling any discussions with clients about noise levels, what is acceptable, how to reduce them, etc.
Best regards,
Andreas
The trench collector cannot be implemented with the construction company, exactly for the reasons that elVincent already mentioned. I’m rather skeptical about the air/water heat pump, especially since the company has no experience with it yet. The ground loop collector would therefore be my favorite option, also because the cost difference is minimal due to the subsidy.
Has anyone installed something like this here? What kind of ongoing costs should I roughly expect?
I just don’t want the gas heating to turn out to be the better solution in the end.
Has anyone installed something like this here? What kind of ongoing costs should I roughly expect?
I just don’t want the gas heating to turn out to be the better solution in the end.
Hi,
Yes, that's correct. And depending on the person, an increase of 5 to 10 dB is perceived as an approximate doubling of the noise level.
Best regards,
Andreas
MarcWen schrieb:
If I remember correctly, the sound pressure doubles every 6 dB?
Yes, that's correct. And depending on the person, an increase of 5 to 10 dB is perceived as an approximate doubling of the noise level.
Best regards,
Andreas