ᐅ Environmental heat: how effective is it for properly heating a house?
Created on: 13 Aug 2022 15:48
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tollpatsch
Hello,
I have viewed a property that is currently gutted, so it offers a perfect blank canvas to design according to my own ideas. My biggest question at the moment is about the heating system. The real estate agent couldn’t provide much information on this. The plan is to use environmental heat for heating. I have tried to research this online. It seems that systems, at least those generating heat from ambient air, only work effectively down to 0°C (32°F).
I don’t want to struggle to keep the house warm during freezing temperatures outside (–15°C (5°F) or colder) or rely on expensive additional electricity costs. Since I belong to the group that prefers a warm indoor temperature (24°C (75°F)) rather than just 18–20°C (64–68°F) in my rooms, I am currently having doubts about whether the property is still interesting for me.
I have viewed a property that is currently gutted, so it offers a perfect blank canvas to design according to my own ideas. My biggest question at the moment is about the heating system. The real estate agent couldn’t provide much information on this. The plan is to use environmental heat for heating. I have tried to research this online. It seems that systems, at least those generating heat from ambient air, only work effectively down to 0°C (32°F).
I don’t want to struggle to keep the house warm during freezing temperatures outside (–15°C (5°F) or colder) or rely on expensive additional electricity costs. Since I belong to the group that prefers a warm indoor temperature (24°C (75°F)) rather than just 18–20°C (64–68°F) in my rooms, I am currently having doubts about whether the property is still interesting for me.
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SaniererNRW12313 Aug 2022 19:47tollpatsch schrieb:
Obviously, these, at least those that generate heat from the surrounding air, only make sense down to 0°C (32°F). Obviously, who says that?
Who will rebuild the house?
Who is planning the heating system?
What energy performance level will be achieved?
And so on.
I want to buy a car that doesn’t have an engine yet, but I’ve heard that above 120 km/h (75 mph) fuel consumption increases dramatically – this is the kind of question you asked. More information is needed.
SaniererNRW123 schrieb:
Obviously, who says?
...It is no secret that when the temperature drops below freezing, the heat pump’s electric heater activates. This is exactly electric heating and is far from efficient.sergutsh schrieb:
It is no secret that at subzero temperatures the heat pump’s electric heating element kicks in. This is identical to electric resistance heating, and far from efficient. This is not a secret; it is simply incorrect.
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tollpatsch14 Aug 2022 10:01Oh Lord 🙄
There are also existing properties without an energy performance certificate, for example, because they are being converted into residential spaces and the approval process is still ongoing. How, where, what, why, and for what reason have nothing to do with the question.
As already explained, the property is gutted. Why it is being sold and whether there are any skeletons in the closet, and if so how many, is irrelevant to the question.
Furthermore, as mentioned, there is a heating system: renewable heat -> ambient air.
A ground borehole is likely not possible due to local conditions (distance to the neighbor).
@SaniererNRW123, please troll somewhere else. It is completely irrelevant who is renovating the house, who is planning what, etc. I asked a general question and added my requirements (to properly heat the house), as well as the disadvantages I have found so far on this topic, namely that these systems do not perform well at outdoor temperatures below 0°C (32°F), according to various sources on the internet.
@sergutsh agreed with this.
Because what use is a heating system that ultimately relies on an expensive alternative (electric heating element) because it is not designed for weather conditions with severe subzero temperatures? Such a system may be suitable in other parts of the world, but not in Germany.
If this is not the case, can you, @pkiensch, support your thesis with facts? Because apparently the majority of articles online say otherwise. Of course, with the exception of manufacturer websites, which only present the positive aspects of their products and not the negatives.
There are also existing properties without an energy performance certificate, for example, because they are being converted into residential spaces and the approval process is still ongoing. How, where, what, why, and for what reason have nothing to do with the question.
As already explained, the property is gutted. Why it is being sold and whether there are any skeletons in the closet, and if so how many, is irrelevant to the question.
Furthermore, as mentioned, there is a heating system: renewable heat -> ambient air.
A ground borehole is likely not possible due to local conditions (distance to the neighbor).
@SaniererNRW123, please troll somewhere else. It is completely irrelevant who is renovating the house, who is planning what, etc. I asked a general question and added my requirements (to properly heat the house), as well as the disadvantages I have found so far on this topic, namely that these systems do not perform well at outdoor temperatures below 0°C (32°F), according to various sources on the internet.
@sergutsh agreed with this.
Because what use is a heating system that ultimately relies on an expensive alternative (electric heating element) because it is not designed for weather conditions with severe subzero temperatures? Such a system may be suitable in other parts of the world, but not in Germany.
If this is not the case, can you, @pkiensch, support your thesis with facts? Because apparently the majority of articles online say otherwise. Of course, with the exception of manufacturer websites, which only present the positive aspects of their products and not the negatives.
tollpatsch schrieb:
As for the disadvantages I have found on this topic so far, namely that these are not as effective at outdoor temperatures below 0°C (32°F) – according to various sources on the internet. They are certainly less effective at lower temperatures, but the "threshold" of 0°C (32°F) does not have any particular significance. The rigid claim that there is a hard cut-off at which the heat pump stops working and only the electric heating element operates suggested to me that there was a clear misunderstanding of how heat pumps function, which is why I responded as I did.
tollpatsch schrieb:
If that is not the case, can you @pkiensch back up your thesis with facts? Apparently, the majority of articles on the internet seem to say something different – except, of course, for the manufacturers’ sites that only present the positive aspects of their products and not the negatives. This is a bit of a stalemate since performance data according to DIN EN 14511 is often published by manufacturers themselves. Searching for "A-7/W35" (meaning delivery of water with a flow temperature of 35°C (95°F) at an outdoor temperature of -7°C (19°F)) will show the coefficient of performance (COP) for various common heat pumps (e.g., Geisha, Arotherm, etc.). When doing a full renovation starting from the shell and properly designing a new heating system, the goal should be to achieve a flow temperature below 30°C (86°F), which further improves efficiency. What I see in the data sheets (which I’m not allowed to link but can be easily researched for specific heat pumps) are COP values just under 3 or in the high 2.x range. You might assume that in real-world conditions this performs somewhat worse than under standard test conditions, but even then, you are still far from a COP of 1. If you fundamentally do not trust this data, then there’s not much I can do.
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SaniererNRW12314 Aug 2022 11:47sergutsh schrieb:
It is no secret that at below-freezing temperatures the heat pump’s electric heater kicks in. This is exactly the same as electric heating and far from efficient. That is simply incorrect. A properly designed heating system operates in winter WITHOUT the electric heater. Even at -15°C (5°F), air-to-water heat pumps handle the conditions without issues.
How do I know this? From my job, personal experience, and this forum.
Where did you get your “information” from? And what about the answers to my questions regarding additional details?
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