ᐅ Exhaust Air Heat Pump Nibe F370 – Recommendation from IBG
Created on: 9 Jan 2011 13:33
H
Hausbauer11H
Hausbauer119 Jan 2011 13:33Hello,
I am new to the forum – first of all, many thanks to all the experts.
We are building a KfW 70 house this year, with a living area of approximately/max 150 m² (1615 sq ft).
Some time ago, we were advised by IBG Haus, where the standard system used is a Nibe F370 exhaust air heat pump.
According to the consultant, IBG Haus purchases this system at favorable conditions, making it a more sensible choice than our previously preferred system:
Gas condensing boiler with underfloor heating and solar panels on the roof.
Instead, IBG recommends the exhaust air heat pump combined with controlled ventilation and underfloor heating.
Therefore, my questions to you are:
1. Is an exhaust air heat pump energy-efficient?
2. Would our gas option be better or more sensible?
3. Who has experience with NIBE?
4. Who has experience with this technology or specifically this system?
5. Who has experience with IBG and this technology?
6. What are the disadvantages of this technology? It must always require electricity, right?
Note: I can recognize posts from other home builders and manufacturers within 10 cm (4 inches), so please don’t bother with bashing. It’s a waste of YOUR time!
Many thanks in advance to all genuine advisors!
I am new to the forum – first of all, many thanks to all the experts.
We are building a KfW 70 house this year, with a living area of approximately/max 150 m² (1615 sq ft).
Some time ago, we were advised by IBG Haus, where the standard system used is a Nibe F370 exhaust air heat pump.
According to the consultant, IBG Haus purchases this system at favorable conditions, making it a more sensible choice than our previously preferred system:
Gas condensing boiler with underfloor heating and solar panels on the roof.
Instead, IBG recommends the exhaust air heat pump combined with controlled ventilation and underfloor heating.
Therefore, my questions to you are:
1. Is an exhaust air heat pump energy-efficient?
2. Would our gas option be better or more sensible?
3. Who has experience with NIBE?
4. Who has experience with this technology or specifically this system?
5. Who has experience with IBG and this technology?
6. What are the disadvantages of this technology? It must always require electricity, right?
Note: I can recognize posts from other home builders and manufacturers within 10 cm (4 inches), so please don’t bother with bashing. It’s a waste of YOUR time!
Many thanks in advance to all genuine advisors!
B
Bauexperte9 Jan 2011 15:36Hello,
NIBE’s system technology is a well-known supplier of heat pumps and, in my opinion, one of the largest providers in this field. From my experience, however, the mentioned system is too small for your new build, since you will probably not meet the requirements with a heating load max. 6 kW. The 640 P would, in my opinion, be the better choice – heating load max. 8 kW; underfloor heating as well as controlled supply and exhaust ventilation are also additional.
I will refrain from commenting further “based on your details.”
Kind regards
Hausbauer11 schrieb:
I am new to the forum – so first of all, many thanks to all the experts. We are building a KfW 70 house this year, with a living area of approximately/max. 150 sqm (1615 sq ft). Some time ago, we received advice from IBG Haus, where a standard exhaust air heat pump NIBE F370 is used... IBG instead recommends the exhaust air heat pump with controlled ventilation and underfloor heating.
NIBE’s system technology is a well-known supplier of heat pumps and, in my opinion, one of the largest providers in this field. From my experience, however, the mentioned system is too small for your new build, since you will probably not meet the requirements with a heating load max. 6 kW. The 640 P would, in my opinion, be the better choice – heating load max. 8 kW; underfloor heating as well as controlled supply and exhaust ventilation are also additional.
I will refrain from commenting further “based on your details.”
Kind regards
H
Hausbauer119 Jan 2011 17:21Thank you, please feel free to elaborate as well. What exactly does the kW rating refer to?
A major disadvantage seems to be the additional heating element used in winter, which apparently can become quite costly.
What are your thoughts on this?
A major disadvantage seems to be the additional heating element used in winter, which apparently can become quite costly.
What are your thoughts on this?
Hello,
An exhaust air heat pump relies, like any heat pump, on its energy source—in this case, the exhaust air. First, energy must be supplied before part of it can be recovered at varying levels of efficiency. Here, mainly electrical energy is required, with significantly less contribution from solar or internal gains. Furthermore, air is physically a very poor medium for storing and transporting energy. The exhaust air heat pump system partly originates from Sweden, where electricity costs have a different significance compared to Germany. Looking at the data for exhaust air heat pumps, one immediately notices the fundamental imbalance between compressor power and electric auxiliary heating. It is also important to distinguish whether it is a pure exhaust air heat pump (F370) or an air heat pump with exhaust air utilization.
Several well-known national general contractors have already had significant problems with such concepts. Customers sometimes face high electricity costs and performance shortfalls during peak demand periods. The main causes are mostly flawed overall concepts and insufficient planning. As a result, pure exhaust air heat pumps are currently being offered at discounted prices.
It is not unusual for national general contractors to purchase heat generation devices of any kind at low prices; however, this does not justify suitability for a specific building project. This "advisor" might be a good home salesperson, but apparently has little understanding of building services engineering.
At this stage, it is also professionally incorrect to recommend a specific device or manufacturer, such as the 640 P.
Best regards,
NB:
Because energy efficiency cannot contractually be guaranteed when building with national general contractors or general planners, it is always worthwhile to have an independent, sales-neutral sizing of heating, domestic hot water preparation, and ventilation carried out. The resulting parameters can then be included in the contract. This gives the client the highest level of security to really receive an efficient building services system.
Hausbauer11 schrieb:
....
1. Is an exhaust air heat pump efficient?
2. Would our gas option be better or more practical?
3. Who has experience with NIBE?
4. Who has experience with this technology or, more specifically, this system?
5. Who has experience with IBG AND this technology?
6. What are the disadvantages of this technology? It always requires additional electricity, right?..
An exhaust air heat pump relies, like any heat pump, on its energy source—in this case, the exhaust air. First, energy must be supplied before part of it can be recovered at varying levels of efficiency. Here, mainly electrical energy is required, with significantly less contribution from solar or internal gains. Furthermore, air is physically a very poor medium for storing and transporting energy. The exhaust air heat pump system partly originates from Sweden, where electricity costs have a different significance compared to Germany. Looking at the data for exhaust air heat pumps, one immediately notices the fundamental imbalance between compressor power and electric auxiliary heating. It is also important to distinguish whether it is a pure exhaust air heat pump (F370) or an air heat pump with exhaust air utilization.
Several well-known national general contractors have already had significant problems with such concepts. Customers sometimes face high electricity costs and performance shortfalls during peak demand periods. The main causes are mostly flawed overall concepts and insufficient planning. As a result, pure exhaust air heat pumps are currently being offered at discounted prices.
It is not unusual for national general contractors to purchase heat generation devices of any kind at low prices; however, this does not justify suitability for a specific building project. This "advisor" might be a good home salesperson, but apparently has little understanding of building services engineering.
At this stage, it is also professionally incorrect to recommend a specific device or manufacturer, such as the 640 P.
Best regards,
NB:
Because energy efficiency cannot contractually be guaranteed when building with national general contractors or general planners, it is always worthwhile to have an independent, sales-neutral sizing of heating, domestic hot water preparation, and ventilation carried out. The resulting parameters can then be included in the contract. This gives the client the highest level of security to really receive an efficient building services system.
B
Bauexperte10 Jan 2011 10:39Hello,
This figure refers to the maximum output the air-to-water heat pump can deliver; if your new building requires more than 6 kW, the F 370 will not be sufficient. For this reason, and because I am familiar with the overall offer from the competitor, I directed your attention to the 640 P model. That is, of course, assuming you are generally willing to accept the “side effects” of an air-to-water heat pump.
In reality, I personally do not recommend the pure air-to-water heat pump to any of my clients, for the reasons described by €uro. Most of my clients have installed an air-to-water heat pump system, sometimes paired with a simple decentralized ventilation system, sometimes with a central system including heat recovery; only a few have chosen a ground-source heat pump. If they are not interested in any of the “newest” energy systems, I advise conventional technology. With a building envelope designed to KfW 70 standard and underfloor heating, they can comfortably wait and see the future consumption results, suitability, and lifespan of these still relatively new energy technologies. There are also ongoing field tests with small wind turbines for residential roofs, and the same goes for ground-source heat pumps. Dedicated innovators are working hard to make ground-source heat pumps usable even where soil conditions currently cause significant cost increases. The coming years will certainly be exciting regarding new technologies.
Kind regards
Hausbauer11 schrieb:
…What exactly does the kW rating refer to?
This figure refers to the maximum output the air-to-water heat pump can deliver; if your new building requires more than 6 kW, the F 370 will not be sufficient. For this reason, and because I am familiar with the overall offer from the competitor, I directed your attention to the 640 P model. That is, of course, assuming you are generally willing to accept the “side effects” of an air-to-water heat pump.
In reality, I personally do not recommend the pure air-to-water heat pump to any of my clients, for the reasons described by €uro. Most of my clients have installed an air-to-water heat pump system, sometimes paired with a simple decentralized ventilation system, sometimes with a central system including heat recovery; only a few have chosen a ground-source heat pump. If they are not interested in any of the “newest” energy systems, I advise conventional technology. With a building envelope designed to KfW 70 standard and underfloor heating, they can comfortably wait and see the future consumption results, suitability, and lifespan of these still relatively new energy technologies. There are also ongoing field tests with small wind turbines for residential roofs, and the same goes for ground-source heat pumps. Dedicated innovators are working hard to make ground-source heat pumps usable even where soil conditions currently cause significant cost increases. The coming years will certainly be exciting regarding new technologies.
Kind regards
H
Hausbauer1110 Jan 2011 20:46Hello, thank you very much for the many replies. The principle of the air-to-water heat pump has already been recommended to me by other happy homeowners.
Do you have links to detailed explanations of how it works?
Why are the electricity costs lower here?
Which model from which manufacturer is considered the most mature?
Many thanks in advance again.
Do you have links to detailed explanations of how it works?
Why are the electricity costs lower here?
Which model from which manufacturer is considered the most mature?
Many thanks in advance again.
Bauexperte schrieb:
Hello,
This figure refers to the maximum output the AWP can deliver; if your new building requires more than 6 kW, the F 370 cannot cover that. For this reason, and because I know the “overall offer” of the competitor, I pointed your attention to the 640 P. Assuming, of course, that you are generally willing to accept the “side effects” of an AWP.
In reality, I personally do not recommend a pure AWP to any of my clients, for the reasons described by €uro. Most of my builders have installed air-to-water heat pumps, sometimes with simple, decentralized ventilation, sometimes as a central system with heat recovery; a few chose a ground-source heat pump. If they cannot be convinced of any of the “newest” energy systems, I advise conventional technology. With a building envelope aimed at KfW 70 and underfloor heating, they can calmly wait and see the upcoming consumption results, suitability, and lifespan of these still relatively new energy technologies. There are also field trials with small wind turbines for house roofs, as well as for ground-source heat pumps. Busy innovators are working to enable the use of GSHPs even where current soil conditions significantly increase costs. The coming years will certainly be exciting regarding new technologies.
Best regards
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