First of all, I want to clarify that my goal is not to save the world (sorry, my bad), but solely to reduce heating costs! I have been calculating back and forth for some time now but unfortunately can’t come to an optimal conclusion.
So here’s my attempt to use collective intelligence. Perhaps someone has already considered the same issues.
My house (old, 25cm (10 inches) Ytong blocks) could be improved in terms of U-value by adding a brick-style polystyrene cladding, or I could install a heat pump. Currently, I am heating with oil but could switch to gas. Oil heating still has a certain grandfathering protection for a while, but it’s likely that I will face problems with oil in the future.
Switching to gas would cost me about $8,000, the heat pump around $15,000. The polystyrene (or similar) cladding would indeed lower heating costs, but when I asked for information, no one could really tell me by what percentage my costs would drop if I improved the U-value (currently 0.35 for 25cm (10 inches) Ytong) by a factor X through additional insulation.
Are there tables or simple rough calculations that could help me decide without having to take another university-level math course first?
Thanks in advance for any information from someone who, like me, does not want to wait for the climate transition that will supposedly bring us winter temperatures of +15°C (59°F). 😉
So here’s my attempt to use collective intelligence. Perhaps someone has already considered the same issues.
My house (old, 25cm (10 inches) Ytong blocks) could be improved in terms of U-value by adding a brick-style polystyrene cladding, or I could install a heat pump. Currently, I am heating with oil but could switch to gas. Oil heating still has a certain grandfathering protection for a while, but it’s likely that I will face problems with oil in the future.
Switching to gas would cost me about $8,000, the heat pump around $15,000. The polystyrene (or similar) cladding would indeed lower heating costs, but when I asked for information, no one could really tell me by what percentage my costs would drop if I improved the U-value (currently 0.35 for 25cm (10 inches) Ytong) by a factor X through additional insulation.
Are there tables or simple rough calculations that could help me decide without having to take another university-level math course first?
Thanks in advance for any information from someone who, like me, does not want to wait for the climate transition that will supposedly bring us winter temperatures of +15°C (59°F). 😉
B
Benutzer2002 Dec 2021 00:26Caveman schrieb:
Thanks for the tip, I looked into it, but the "affordable" units are all in the low 5 kW range, which isn’t enough for my 120 m² (1,292 ft²). Why not? I manage with that, and so do many others in older buildings.
Caveman schrieb:
Most of the heat from underfloor heating rises upwards due to convection. LOL – you really believe that.
Caveman schrieb:
Thanks for the tip, I looked into it, but the "affordable" units are all in the low 5 kW range, And this is going to be cheaper and even better if it’s Chinese gear from Aliexpress? Keep dreaming.
Caveman schrieb:
I use the basement rooms and am glad they are sufficiently tempered without needing additional heating installation! Expensive basement heating...
Caveman schrieb:
The 0.21 polyurethane value corresponds to the 6 cm (2.4 inches) thickness from Boeger Fassaden (insulation overlay with clinker design). Where does that value with PUR come from? The best 0.023 W/m·K PUR (if it’s foil-faced—fleece-faced is worse) only gave me a U-value of 0.36 with 6 cm (2.4 inches) thickness. Boeger Fassaden can’t perform miracles with PUR either. A U-value of 0.21 is practically not achievable unless you use 100 mm (4 inches) thickness.
Caveman schrieb:
Also thanks for the calculator program tips, which I’ve checked out, but unfortunately, they all only calculate one “single U-value,” and I haven’t been able to determine the combination of two values (insulation U1 0.35 // + insulation U2 0.21). You can simulate the entire wall assembly. By the way, this isn’t done using U-values alone, but with the thermal conductivity classes (WLG) of the materials. With standard PUR like Boeger’s at a WLG 27, you need 125 mm (5 inches) thickness to reach a U-value of 0.21.
Caveman schrieb:
A neighbor applied this insulation and told me he saves about 250 liters (66 gallons) of oil per year (~15%) on his 100 m² (1,076 ft²) house. A 60 mm (2.4 inches) insulation effect really isn’t state-of-the-art anymore. You can’t expect much from that—especially if the rest of the house isn’t upgraded too. It’s like your basement. Either heat it properly with correct heating (inside the thermal envelope) or treat it as outside the thermal envelope and insulate the basement ceiling. The basement won’t get very cold anyway. Use a convection heater if needed. What you’re doing is pointless energy waste.
You need a proper plan instead of vague talk and hearsay.
Caveman schrieb:
A neighbor applied this insulation and told me he saves about 250 liters (66 gallons) of oil per year on his 100 m² (1,076 ft²) house. Calculated roughly for my house, I then come to just over 200 in savings per year. So in practice, the savings claimed by insulation sellers should also be taken with caution. As I said, you need a proper plan. In my 120 m² (1,292 ft²) house, I have a heat pump with underfloor heating, and the tenant above me still has the old oil heating with radiators. Currently, her heating costs are expected to be about two to 2.5 times mine—despite living in the same house. No external insulation either. She just heats 80 m² (860 ft²). Just a different heating system.
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
The tip about consulting an energy adviser is certainly worth considering, but I’ve had experiences in conversations some time ago that turned me into a “consultation-resistant” person!
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Basically, they turn out to be salespeople who like to complicate things, want to create plans, measure the boiler room, etc., to justify the consulting effort and then offer proposals—usually company-specific and influenced by commission.
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Heat pumps are good for the environment but unfortunately haven’t really reduced my heating costs. (A small note: it’s relatively easy to import heat pumps from China yourself. – Not everything from the Far East is rubbish; you do have to put in some work, but the parts are surprisingly affordable, so you might not even need subsidies—if you can get them at all.)
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As I said, consultation-resistant, because all the experts warned me. But it has proven itself in practice!
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Adding exterior insulation. After research, a thickness of 6 cm (2.4 inches) is reasonable in terms of price and efficiency.Höhlenmensch schrieb:
I ruled out photovoltaics after thorough research and comparing notes with a friend. I’m at 53° northern latitude, and my gable roof faces west! Even our top expert from TU Berlin (you can watch the Quaschning lecture on YouTube) warned against it.
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A wish for everyone with heat pumps -> may you stay warm in the coming winters.
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Fortunately, I don’t have a new build but an existing building. Our well-intentioned “lawmakers” ...
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China ... they have parts with up to 80°C (176°F) supply temperature. I’m skeptical too and currently corresponding about that.
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Contrary to the widely accepted opinion at the time, no special insulation was planned. Contrary to the experts’ opinions, this has proven effective over the years. The heat from the underfloor heating mainly rises due to thermodynamics, and the losses downward I don’t consider losses but rather a gain.
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The 0.21 polyurethane refers to the 6 cm (2.4 inches) product from Boeger facades (insulation cladding with brick design).
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So you can see, in practice, the savings claimed by insulation sellers should be treated with caution.
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Researching how transport costs for “heat pump-China” under DAP Germany (“free” delivery) work.You’ve already really immersed yourself in the topic, gained your own practical experience, and developed the right amount of skepticism towards so-called advisers, specialists, and salespeople (unless they come from China). This will surely lead you to a fitting concept. Honestly, you can’t do much better than that.
Höhlenmensch2 Dec 2021 22:59Yes, thanks for the responses... there’s really no other option than to absorb all the information.
The problem is that many people rely on the "experts" because they don’t have the time. These experts often believe everything they were told in training courses (energy consultants) and so on. For example, energy consultants have come door-to-door offering "free" advice. Replacing an old refrigerator with an AAA++ appliance to save electricity has recently been rated as not recommended by consumer organizations.
(Not for environmental reasons, only financial!) If nothing is too expensive for the environment… well, in that case, maybe I’d rather invest in some proper stocks… 😉
As TmMike_2 correctly pointed out, my priority is naturally purely on the economic side!
When it comes to the pros and cons of CO2 reduction and saving the world, as well as leading by example, worldviews diverge—and that discussion would go too far here. (As a side note, it’s worth mentioning that Siemens is currently building a coal power plant in Poland! That’s not to say we should carry on as before, but in 10 years, I don’t want to be the last one living in the Lusatia region turning off the lights when the last unemployed people have emigrated to Sicily.) We also get nuclear power from France, and I will pay for the new environmental requirements if I build a new house with mandatory photovoltaic panels in three years!
Their use is not always ideal!
Let’s see how opinions shift in coming years with rising costs. Unfortunately, many issues are no longer easy to assess objectively due to interest groups.
By the way, in photovoltaic system consultations, many facts are often ignored during planning, such as degradation of components due to aging, cleaning with fully demineralized water because of dirt buildup, changes in feed-in tariffs from energy providers (see the decline over recent years), etc., especially when calculating payback times. (The alternative of own storage and its costs can only be considered realistic by dreamers. Even better now is producing your own hydrogen. Not everything that is possible is also sensible. At least not yet!)
My contacts with the “well-known” company that leases photovoltaic systems ended when, after pressing them hard, I was finally told that, for technical reasons, the components cannot be installed on my roof anyway. At the start, when I gave them all the data, they didn’t notice this.
So some things solve themselves when you don’t let yourself be pushed around. (This is what I meant earlier by the “pressure mentality.”)
Again, a reminder of the tip I posted (Prof. Quaschning, FU Berlin) — I believe sharing links is not allowed here — but those interested in photovoltaics should definitely check it out before making decisions.
A quick note on my basement heating as well. Heat naturally rises, that is a physical fact. I don’t consider my losses through the insufficient insulation between the ground floor and basement as losses because, for those reasons, I don’t want a cold basement. From years of experience, I can say about 70% of the heat goes to the ground floor, and the remaining 30% essentially serves as “basement ceiling heating.” In my view, this is not a loss.
I will also take another look at the Panasonic components posted—they are heavily discounted products! But okay, I’m still waiting on shipping costs, which China-Ali doesn’t provide directly; I had to contact the manufacturers directly. (Luckily English is a global language because my Mandarin skills are somewhat limited. :cool 🙂
In summary, I can say that the total costs for insulation including installation (regardless of the material used) are not proportional to the savings (oil/money), so I’m not insulating right now and living with my poor old Ytong values (25cm (10 inches)). New builds only allow 36cm (14 inches) now. Who knows what new products will be available in 10-15 years—probably more expensive.
The heat pump is not dead yet if costs come well below the commonly quoted $15,000. Let’s see if it can get cheaper.
About eight years ago, I wanted to buy a small combined heat and power unit from Viessmann. That would have allowed me to generate both heat and electricity myself. Now, eight years later, the units with Stirling engines are no longer offered! Back then, it was marketed as the ultimate solution. I was a bit suspicious of the Stirling engine and therefore didn’t buy it—luckily.
I’m just about to go to the basement to manually adjust the heating because the outdoor sensor is on the north wall, but we had sun all day and it is a bit too warm inside. So much for the great control systems.
Thinking for yourself is sometimes better than relying exclusively on technology…
Best regards from the skeptic
The problem is that many people rely on the "experts" because they don’t have the time. These experts often believe everything they were told in training courses (energy consultants) and so on. For example, energy consultants have come door-to-door offering "free" advice. Replacing an old refrigerator with an AAA++ appliance to save electricity has recently been rated as not recommended by consumer organizations.
(Not for environmental reasons, only financial!) If nothing is too expensive for the environment… well, in that case, maybe I’d rather invest in some proper stocks… 😉
As TmMike_2 correctly pointed out, my priority is naturally purely on the economic side!
When it comes to the pros and cons of CO2 reduction and saving the world, as well as leading by example, worldviews diverge—and that discussion would go too far here. (As a side note, it’s worth mentioning that Siemens is currently building a coal power plant in Poland! That’s not to say we should carry on as before, but in 10 years, I don’t want to be the last one living in the Lusatia region turning off the lights when the last unemployed people have emigrated to Sicily.) We also get nuclear power from France, and I will pay for the new environmental requirements if I build a new house with mandatory photovoltaic panels in three years!
Their use is not always ideal!
Let’s see how opinions shift in coming years with rising costs. Unfortunately, many issues are no longer easy to assess objectively due to interest groups.
By the way, in photovoltaic system consultations, many facts are often ignored during planning, such as degradation of components due to aging, cleaning with fully demineralized water because of dirt buildup, changes in feed-in tariffs from energy providers (see the decline over recent years), etc., especially when calculating payback times. (The alternative of own storage and its costs can only be considered realistic by dreamers. Even better now is producing your own hydrogen. Not everything that is possible is also sensible. At least not yet!)
My contacts with the “well-known” company that leases photovoltaic systems ended when, after pressing them hard, I was finally told that, for technical reasons, the components cannot be installed on my roof anyway. At the start, when I gave them all the data, they didn’t notice this.
So some things solve themselves when you don’t let yourself be pushed around. (This is what I meant earlier by the “pressure mentality.”)
Again, a reminder of the tip I posted (Prof. Quaschning, FU Berlin) — I believe sharing links is not allowed here — but those interested in photovoltaics should definitely check it out before making decisions.
A quick note on my basement heating as well. Heat naturally rises, that is a physical fact. I don’t consider my losses through the insufficient insulation between the ground floor and basement as losses because, for those reasons, I don’t want a cold basement. From years of experience, I can say about 70% of the heat goes to the ground floor, and the remaining 30% essentially serves as “basement ceiling heating.” In my view, this is not a loss.
I will also take another look at the Panasonic components posted—they are heavily discounted products! But okay, I’m still waiting on shipping costs, which China-Ali doesn’t provide directly; I had to contact the manufacturers directly. (Luckily English is a global language because my Mandarin skills are somewhat limited. :cool 🙂
In summary, I can say that the total costs for insulation including installation (regardless of the material used) are not proportional to the savings (oil/money), so I’m not insulating right now and living with my poor old Ytong values (25cm (10 inches)). New builds only allow 36cm (14 inches) now. Who knows what new products will be available in 10-15 years—probably more expensive.
The heat pump is not dead yet if costs come well below the commonly quoted $15,000. Let’s see if it can get cheaper.
About eight years ago, I wanted to buy a small combined heat and power unit from Viessmann. That would have allowed me to generate both heat and electricity myself. Now, eight years later, the units with Stirling engines are no longer offered! Back then, it was marketed as the ultimate solution. I was a bit suspicious of the Stirling engine and therefore didn’t buy it—luckily.
I’m just about to go to the basement to manually adjust the heating because the outdoor sensor is on the north wall, but we had sun all day and it is a bit too warm inside. So much for the great control systems.
Thinking for yourself is sometimes better than relying exclusively on technology…
Best regards from the skeptic
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
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When it comes to the pros and cons of CO2 and saving the planet, as well as leading by example, worldviews diverge—discussing this here would of course go too far.It would have been better to leave it at that. Lots of opinions, few facts.H
hampshire2 Dec 2021 23:33Höhlenmensch schrieb:
As TmMike_2 has already correctly pointed out, my priority is naturally purely on the economic side! This attitude is okay and certainly quite common. Whether it is “natural” I have my doubts.
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
In summary, I can say that the total costs for the insulation including installation (regardless of the material used) do not justify the savings (oil/money), which is why I am not insulating for now but living with my poor old Ytong value (25cm (10 inches)). This makes the demand for higher prices for oil and gas understandable.
B
Benutzer2002 Dec 2021 23:45Höhlenmensch schrieb:
By the way, in photovoltaic consulting, many factors such as performance degradation due to aging, cleaning with fully demineralized water because of dirt buildup, changes in power purchase agreements with energy providers (see the decline in recent years), etc., often get conveniently ignored when calculating payback periods.Sure, there are only very few providers who offer cleaning water harvested by a virgin under a full moon. What nonsense you’re letting yourself be told and spreading here. The first cleaning, which happens extremely regularly, is rain. Then comes the garden hose and a scrub brush. You can forget about the rest. Changes in power purchase agreements with energy providers is even bigger nonsense. You get a fixed feed-in tariff for 20 years. That does not change from the moment of installation. The reduction in tariffs is something different. Modules have also become cheaper because of that.
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Performance degradation of the modules due to agingThat’s manageable too. You typically get warranties guaranteeing nearly 90% of performance for 15 to 20 years. And considering the usual 70% rule, that’s still acceptable.==> Conclusion on photovoltaics: You have zero clue, sorry…
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
My contacts with the "well-known" company that leases the systemsThere is a separate thread on that topic, for example. It’s a good business for lessors – but that’s always the case with leasing. Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Regarding my basement heating as a side note: Heat naturally rises, that’s a physical fact. I don’t see my losses due to poor insulation between ground floor and basement as losses, because, for the reasons mentioned, I don’t want a cold basement.Physics isn’t your strong suit, is it? Heat does not rise. Warm air does. In solids, heat is transferred by conduction, which is directionless and spreads in all directions. So about 50% of the heat goes towards your basement ceiling – that’s why you have insulation under the screed (assuming you have it) to stop heat conduction.
See it how you want, but you cannot cheat the laws of physics. By the way, “cold” is a relative term. I prefer to generate heat in the basement directly – for example, by turning on an infrared heater. That’s much more economical – and that’s what matters – than distributing heat uselessly.
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
I’ll also check out the Panasonic parts posted – those are heavily discounted! But okay, I’m still waiting on the shipping costs, which China-Ali doesn’t provide directly, so I had to communicate directly with the manufacturers. (Luckily English is the global language, as my Mandarin skills are somewhat lacking :cool 🙂Isn’t it normal that the MSRP is just a recommendation? You’ll find that with every heating system. I would rather buy a reputable brand than “cheap Chinese junk.” With Panasonic, you just call customer service and that’s it. Nobody comes from China. But sure. You usually buy twice when you buy cheap.
Höhlenmensch schrieb:
In summary, I can say that total costs for insulation including installation (regardless of the material used) do not justify the savings (oil/money).And how exactly did you calculate that? I guess you just rolled dice or played rock-paper-scissors. But technically, computationally, energetically, you have no clue, unfortunately. Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Heat pumps aren’t dead yet, if the costs were far below the commonly quoted $15,000.What exactly is included in that $15,000? What do you mean by “commonly quoted”? Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Newbuilds are only possible with 36 cm now.Is that so? Who says that? What kind of blocks? With or without external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) / external wall insulation / cladding? Timber frame? Höhlenmensch schrieb:
I’m just going to the basement now to manually adjust the heating because the outdoor sensor is on the north wall, but we had sun all day and it's a bit too warm inside.What bad luck that you live in an area where the sun shines all day on the north wall. Also inconvenient that you have to turn the heating down at 11 p.m. because it was too warm during the day (and it’s only six hours without sun) and it doesn’t cool down at night either. Then tomorrow at noon you’ll turn the heating back up because there was frost the previous night. Really cool! Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Regards from the skepticThat should have been “Regards from I’m just a bar talker.” You really need to take these topics seriously. The nonsense you’re writing is hard to read without falling off your chair.Similar topics