ᐅ What is feasible on the existing plot and within the budget
Created on: 8 Mar 2019 13:12
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neigschmeckt
Hello everyone,
somehow I’m stuck in a planning chaos and hope to get a few tips from you regarding the planning approach and/or ideas for implementation…
In particular, a cost estimate would probably help me with regard to the basement design. Or how many square meters of house we can afford. Can we save money if, instead of a living basement, we plan the garage in the basement and enlarge the house footprint to accommodate a guest room/office and utility room?
What is the most cost-effective way to achieve my desired level access to the large terrace and garden from the ground floor (living/dining/kitchen)? There should be enough space to at least partially accommodate an embankment with a slope.
Any ideas for the placement of the garage? I especially can’t quite visualize the slope.
We still have a total budget of 500,000 € (land already owned). It has to be somehow feasible with this budget to build a family house (not just standard equipped) with more than 130 sqm plus basement, garage and outdoor area in Baden-Württemberg, right?
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size: approx. 769 sqm (access and final measurement still pending)
Slope: yes, 2 or 3 meters (6.5 or 10 feet) gradient
Floor area ratio: 0.4 (max. 0.6)
Floor space index: -
Building window, building line and boundary: 2.5 m (8 ft) setback from boundary
Edge development: garages, if connected to the main building; street-side 1 m (3 ft) distance
Number of parking spaces: 2
Number of floors: -
Roof shape: single-pitched (SD), half-hipped (vSD), gabled roof (WD) 30 - 40°: max ridge height 8.0 m (26 ft)
dormer roof (ZD), gable dormer (gD) 10 – 25°: max ridge height 8.0 m (26 ft)
flat roof (FD) 0 -5°: max parapet height 6.8 m (22 ft)
Architectural style: -
Orientation: parallel to the street or rotated 90°, see plan
Maximum heights/limits: height measured from reference height (highest point on our plot); max ridge height 8 m (26 ft) (for flat roof max parapet height 6.8 m (22 ft))
Additional requirements:
Client requirements:
Style: modern, but practicality on the outside more important than aesthetics!
Roof type: doesn’t matter, just no knee wall under 1.50 m (5 ft)
Building type: any
Basement, floors: initial idea is a living basement with a self-contained apartment; alternatively living basement with guest room/office or utility basement with integrated garage?? This is already part of the planning problem
Number of people, age: 36 and 38 + 1.5 years
Space requirements on ground floor and upper floor:
GF: (level access with garden connection or large terrace) 50 sqm (540 sqft) for open living/dining/kitchen; the rest depends on wishes such as guest toilet or shower bathroom, entrance area/wardrobe as a mudroom to avoid dirt being brought into the house, circulation area for stairs and guest toilet not in the dirty area right at the front door; small office/spare guest room, possibly a pantry for vacuum cleaner, broom, etc.
UF: bathroom with double vanity, bathtub for two (180 x 80 cm (71 x 31 inches)), bright floor-tiled shower 1 x 1.2 m (3 x 4 ft) with glass door; one large (>15 sqm (160 sqft)) and one smaller (about 12-15 sqm (130-160 sqft)) children’s bedrooms; master bedroom, walk-in closet (accessible from the corridor), small hallway (no wasted space for large hallway, prefer bigger rooms), possibly utility room for washing machine, dryer, ironing and drying rack
Office: Family use or home office?: both; both adults work about one day a week from home.
Overnight guests per year: around 1-2 guests every 2 months, possibly increasing due to childcare
Open or closed architecture: open!
Conservative or modern construction: rather modern, many floor-to-ceiling windows, light light light…
Open kitchen, kitchen island: open kitchen!!! Preferably with an island (possibly not enough space); important: sink and work surface not against a wall and not facing away from living-dining area!! (Wish side-by-side fridge, tall oven)
Number of dining seats: 4-6 (more than 6 only with extendable table and chairs to be fetched)
Fireplace: possibly preparation
Music/speaker wall: no
Balcony, roof terrace: because of the slope garage roof on basement level as roof terrace for the ground floor
Garage, carport: double—preferably large garage. Two cars used only on weekends MUST fit in garage with some space for tools and repairs. For one daily-use car garage or carport (convenient getting in/out and short, low-stair access paths to house entrance, preferably under cover). One more daily car somewhere else (e.g. parking space in front of garage or similar)
Utility garden, greenhouse: no
Other wishes/special features/daily routine, also reasons why this or that should or should not be:
level access from kitchen/dining/living to garden is a must, alternatively large roof terrace leading to garden!
Future wishes: possibility to add a pool; smart home retrofit
House design
Designed by:
-builder’s planner
-architect
-do-it-yourself
What do you like especially? Why?
What do you dislike? Why?
Price estimate by architect/planner:
Personal price limit for the house including equipment: 500,000 € for house including everything, also earthworks, kitchen, outdoor area (possibly in installments) and double garage
Preferred heating technology: gas not connected, therefore air-source heat pump, preferably with photovoltaics
If you had to forego some details/extensions
-You could live without: for now the third garage or carport for daily vehicle or oversized double/large garage, if planning allows later realization; self-contained apartment, living basement (if office on ground floor and utility room upstairs), basement (if slope allows and house footprint increases), stair-low access to the house, fireplace
-You cannot do without: 50 sqm open living/dining/kitchen, open living, mudroom, floor-to-ceiling windows, electric shutters,
somehow I’m stuck in a planning chaos and hope to get a few tips from you regarding the planning approach and/or ideas for implementation…
In particular, a cost estimate would probably help me with regard to the basement design. Or how many square meters of house we can afford. Can we save money if, instead of a living basement, we plan the garage in the basement and enlarge the house footprint to accommodate a guest room/office and utility room?
What is the most cost-effective way to achieve my desired level access to the large terrace and garden from the ground floor (living/dining/kitchen)? There should be enough space to at least partially accommodate an embankment with a slope.
Any ideas for the placement of the garage? I especially can’t quite visualize the slope.
We still have a total budget of 500,000 € (land already owned). It has to be somehow feasible with this budget to build a family house (not just standard equipped) with more than 130 sqm plus basement, garage and outdoor area in Baden-Württemberg, right?
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size: approx. 769 sqm (access and final measurement still pending)
Slope: yes, 2 or 3 meters (6.5 or 10 feet) gradient
Floor area ratio: 0.4 (max. 0.6)
Floor space index: -
Building window, building line and boundary: 2.5 m (8 ft) setback from boundary
Edge development: garages, if connected to the main building; street-side 1 m (3 ft) distance
Number of parking spaces: 2
Number of floors: -
Roof shape: single-pitched (SD), half-hipped (vSD), gabled roof (WD) 30 - 40°: max ridge height 8.0 m (26 ft)
dormer roof (ZD), gable dormer (gD) 10 – 25°: max ridge height 8.0 m (26 ft)
flat roof (FD) 0 -5°: max parapet height 6.8 m (22 ft)
Architectural style: -
Orientation: parallel to the street or rotated 90°, see plan
Maximum heights/limits: height measured from reference height (highest point on our plot); max ridge height 8 m (26 ft) (for flat roof max parapet height 6.8 m (22 ft))
Additional requirements:
Client requirements:
Style: modern, but practicality on the outside more important than aesthetics!
Roof type: doesn’t matter, just no knee wall under 1.50 m (5 ft)
Building type: any
Basement, floors: initial idea is a living basement with a self-contained apartment; alternatively living basement with guest room/office or utility basement with integrated garage?? This is already part of the planning problem
Number of people, age: 36 and 38 + 1.5 years
Space requirements on ground floor and upper floor:
GF: (level access with garden connection or large terrace) 50 sqm (540 sqft) for open living/dining/kitchen; the rest depends on wishes such as guest toilet or shower bathroom, entrance area/wardrobe as a mudroom to avoid dirt being brought into the house, circulation area for stairs and guest toilet not in the dirty area right at the front door; small office/spare guest room, possibly a pantry for vacuum cleaner, broom, etc.
UF: bathroom with double vanity, bathtub for two (180 x 80 cm (71 x 31 inches)), bright floor-tiled shower 1 x 1.2 m (3 x 4 ft) with glass door; one large (>15 sqm (160 sqft)) and one smaller (about 12-15 sqm (130-160 sqft)) children’s bedrooms; master bedroom, walk-in closet (accessible from the corridor), small hallway (no wasted space for large hallway, prefer bigger rooms), possibly utility room for washing machine, dryer, ironing and drying rack
Office: Family use or home office?: both; both adults work about one day a week from home.
Overnight guests per year: around 1-2 guests every 2 months, possibly increasing due to childcare
Open or closed architecture: open!
Conservative or modern construction: rather modern, many floor-to-ceiling windows, light light light…
Open kitchen, kitchen island: open kitchen!!! Preferably with an island (possibly not enough space); important: sink and work surface not against a wall and not facing away from living-dining area!! (Wish side-by-side fridge, tall oven)
Number of dining seats: 4-6 (more than 6 only with extendable table and chairs to be fetched)
Fireplace: possibly preparation
Music/speaker wall: no
Balcony, roof terrace: because of the slope garage roof on basement level as roof terrace for the ground floor
Garage, carport: double—preferably large garage. Two cars used only on weekends MUST fit in garage with some space for tools and repairs. For one daily-use car garage or carport (convenient getting in/out and short, low-stair access paths to house entrance, preferably under cover). One more daily car somewhere else (e.g. parking space in front of garage or similar)
Utility garden, greenhouse: no
Other wishes/special features/daily routine, also reasons why this or that should or should not be:
level access from kitchen/dining/living to garden is a must, alternatively large roof terrace leading to garden!
Future wishes: possibility to add a pool; smart home retrofit
House design
Designed by:
-builder’s planner
-architect
-do-it-yourself
What do you like especially? Why?
What do you dislike? Why?
Price estimate by architect/planner:
Personal price limit for the house including equipment: 500,000 € for house including everything, also earthworks, kitchen, outdoor area (possibly in installments) and double garage
Preferred heating technology: gas not connected, therefore air-source heat pump, preferably with photovoltaics
If you had to forego some details/extensions
-You could live without: for now the third garage or carport for daily vehicle or oversized double/large garage, if planning allows later realization; self-contained apartment, living basement (if office on ground floor and utility room upstairs), basement (if slope allows and house footprint increases), stair-low access to the house, fireplace
-You cannot do without: 50 sqm open living/dining/kitchen, open living, mudroom, floor-to-ceiling windows, electric shutters,
Timber frame or masonry. I’m leaning toward timber frame.
Where is the road located?
I would plan it similarly to us.
Southeast garage and courtyard
Next to it, the basement with
Living, dining, and terrace in the west
Entrance on the south side
Bathroom facing south
Kitchen in the southwest
Building services occupy the windowless room between the garage, slope, and stairs
Upstairs: bedrooms, bathroom, utility room with access to the north
Gable roof
A rooftop terrace is really like living on a showpiece.
We moved in in 2018; building on a slope, the budget of 500,000 is extremely tight.
You have to save every dig of the excavator and every square meter.
Exterior work in EL (electrical installation) sounds simple. Retaining walls, earthworks—without machinery like excavators or concrete pumps, it quickly becomes slave labor.
The costs mentioned above are not enough for the earthworks and garage.
Where is the road located?
I would plan it similarly to us.
Southeast garage and courtyard
Next to it, the basement with
Living, dining, and terrace in the west
Entrance on the south side
Bathroom facing south
Kitchen in the southwest
Building services occupy the windowless room between the garage, slope, and stairs
Upstairs: bedrooms, bathroom, utility room with access to the north
Gable roof
A rooftop terrace is really like living on a showpiece.
We moved in in 2018; building on a slope, the budget of 500,000 is extremely tight.
You have to save every dig of the excavator and every square meter.
Exterior work in EL (electrical installation) sounds simple. Retaining walls, earthworks—without machinery like excavators or concrete pumps, it quickly becomes slave labor.
The costs mentioned above are not enough for the earthworks and garage.
I already said that the original poster isn’t asking this question without a reason. The general contractor’s offer is too expensive, and a house with custom design built by separate trades can be, but does not have to be, more expensive. At the very least, it won’t be cheaper—in fact, it tends to be less predictable—until actual quotes are available.
My architect calculated a cost of 400€ per cubic meter of enclosed space in 2017. You can estimate the brick garage at around 150€ per cubic meter. These would only be the raw construction costs for part of a house with a garage, excluding additional construction costs, architect fees, kitchen, landscaping, and bathroom upgrades in 2017.
My architect calculated a cost of 400€ per cubic meter of enclosed space in 2017. You can estimate the brick garage at around 150€ per cubic meter. These would only be the raw construction costs for part of a house with a garage, excluding additional construction costs, architect fees, kitchen, landscaping, and bathroom upgrades in 2017.
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neigschmeckt8 Mar 2019 21:23Thank you very much, 11ant, for the detailed answer and explanation!!
It’s quite disappointing that the companies we contacted before were unable to explain this to us, even though we asked several times whether the basement solution was realistic and if the reference height was meant as shown in our sketch.
Another rough offer from a prefab house company would be around 360,000. According to our own calculations, with everything included we would be in the region of 550,000, including kitchen for 25,000, garage for 40,000.
It’s quite disappointing that the companies we contacted before were unable to explain this to us, even though we asked several times whether the basement solution was realistic and if the reference height was meant as shown in our sketch.
11ant schrieb:If we assume the actual ground level, I completely agree with you. Our own research didn’t get us any further with the reference height, and the general contractors didn’t clarify it either. That brings me back to my original idea of placing the garages on the north side along the property boundary and connecting them to the main building with a covered entrance or carport. This would probably mean a longer driveway.
The house is generally at elevation 209, the garage at 208.5, which is not suitable for using the roof terrace or setting it back below the south-facing windows – so I see the design as needing revision.
11ant schrieb:As mentioned, we have assumed our ground floor at 210.5 and that earthworks would be necessary to shape the garden, with necessary retaining works. Only then did the garage with roof terrace come about.
Raising the house closer to the reference height reduces knee wall options and would raise the basement level too much; however, for a whole floor garage below the main floor, this would be necessary. 1. I don’t see the layout as feasible like in the sketch, and 2. I find the ground floor level around 209 to 209.5 to be most practical.
11ant schrieb:What exactly is a "fox-level"? Google doesn’t seem to know that either. 🙂
3. Overall, I see a required "fox-level" from the architect – a skillset rarely found in general contractor draftspeople.
11ant schrieb:I’m not willing to compromise much here. Such a low knee wall is only acceptable to me if the footprint is huge – then the kids’ room should easily be 20sqm (215 sq ft), the bathroom 15sqm (160 sq ft) or more. I also tend to imagine knee wall windows rather than roof windows, which do require a certain knee wall height. Unless someone can convince me of unbreakable roof window shutters that are usable even in difficult weather (like frost).
Regarding your wish for a knee wall height >150, I’d point out that a knee wall is always a dividing line: either below the eaves are only facade windows and above only roof windows, or you have to use dormers. Angled windows on both surfaces never really became popular for good reasons. I therefore advise against such large knee walls and see a practical height closer to a finished dimension of 120 (between 100 and 125). A good knee wall fully replaces a dwarf wall but not beyond that.
HilfeHilfe schrieb:The quote is complete nonsense. Totally opaque, missing all requested items, and as 11ant explained, basically not feasible at all. About 450,000 for 200sqm (floor area including walls 104sqm (1120 sq ft), with a finished basement). Very few windows, no carport, with a prefabricated double garage, no landscaping.
If you already have a quote, what does it come to?
Another rough offer from a prefab house company would be around 360,000. According to our own calculations, with everything included we would be in the region of 550,000, including kitchen for 25,000, garage for 40,000.
haydee schrieb:I actually wanted to hear that it might still be doable :-P … I’m already trying to get used to laminate flooring to get an extra square meter for the garage. We already dropped mentioning the 3.50m (11.5 ft) height and the lift platform that we wanted. But the third garage or carport is a must. I don’t want to get into a sweltering hot car or have to scrape ice off. It doesn’t have to be there in the first two years, but definitely by the third.
By the way, our aerial work platform, higher garage, third garage parking spot or carport, swimming pond, and Aga stove all fell victim to the budget.
At the point you’re at now, we were all there.
haydee schrieb:The first offer is timber frame. Our calculations for a total of 550,000 also go with timber frame.
Timber frame or masonry? I’d guess timber frame.
haydee schrieb:
Where is the road?
To the right in the picture, so southeast.
haydee schrieb:The garage would initially be only for the oldtimers, so it doesn’t have to be directly on the main driveway or double-access with the yard. With 9m (30 ft) length, the oldtimers could be parked in a row. This means we will have to reconsider this now.
I would plan it similar to us.
Garage and courtyard to the southeast
Next to it the basement with
Living, dining, terrace to the west
Entrance to the south
Bathroom south
Kitchen southwest
House services in the windowless room between garage, slope, staircase
Upstairs bedrooms, bathroom, utility room with access to the north
Gable roof
haydee schrieb:I don’t care – if people want to look, let them. I just want to have a view myself.
Roof terrace is really living on a stage.
I was thinking of using a timber frame.
Use the basement as fully livable space. Remove one floor.
You can position and build the garage walls so that you can add an additional story later.
Build the foundation as usual.
Build walls up to a standard height.
Then, no concrete ceiling—use roof rafters with some kind of covering on top.
Use the basement as fully livable space. Remove one floor.
You can position and build the garage walls so that you can add an additional story later.
Build the foundation as usual.
Build walls up to a standard height.
Then, no concrete ceiling—use roof rafters with some kind of covering on top.
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neigschmeckt8 Mar 2019 22:07haydee schrieb:
Use the basement as fully livable space. Remove one floor.haydee schrieb:
You can position and build the garage walls so that you can add an additional floor later.Good idea.haydee schrieb:
Use the basement as fully livable space. Remove one floor.Are there floor plans or pictures of your house here? I need some floor plan inspiration to be able to imagine it...Similar topics