ᐅ Sewer pipe embedded in the wrong location within the foundation slab
Created on: 13 Sep 2012 16:04
B
bw-baublog
Hello,
Yesterday, our foundation slab was poured. Today we visited the site and the basement walls were marked out. We noticed that in one room, which is a living space with underfloor heating, the drain pipe for a utility sink does not come directly out of the slab near the wall but about 1 meter (3.3 feet) away, in the middle of the room. All other pipes come out in the correct places, right next to the walls.
When I asked the construction manager about this, he casually said, "The team probably measured incorrectly." However, he said this is not a problem. They would simply use a smaller drain pipe (2 inches) and route it through the insulation on the foundation slab under the underfloor heating to the main drain.
My question is: Is this an acceptable solution? Does this represent a defect? Could this create a thermal bridge in the insulated house? Or should we not accept this as is?
Thank you in advance for your answers.
Yesterday, our foundation slab was poured. Today we visited the site and the basement walls were marked out. We noticed that in one room, which is a living space with underfloor heating, the drain pipe for a utility sink does not come directly out of the slab near the wall but about 1 meter (3.3 feet) away, in the middle of the room. All other pipes come out in the correct places, right next to the walls.
When I asked the construction manager about this, he casually said, "The team probably measured incorrectly." However, he said this is not a problem. They would simply use a smaller drain pipe (2 inches) and route it through the insulation on the foundation slab under the underfloor heating to the main drain.
My question is: Is this an acceptable solution? Does this represent a defect? Could this create a thermal bridge in the insulated house? Or should we not accept this as is?
Thank you in advance for your answers.
D
DerBjoern8 Oct 2013 16:05Do you want a reasonable solution or are you seeking retaliation? I rather think you just want to delay things here. Good luck with your building project...
Retaliation sounds so harsh... I’m not trying to squeeze money out of anyone. I already said I don’t want a payout. But if someone makes a mistake (mistakes happen, no doubt) that actually costs around 1000 EUR, then the person responsible should somehow be held accountable or at least show some appropriate goodwill.
The general contractor does not handle bathroom installations. Their work ends at 100mm (4 inches) pipes. So the plumber takes care of it. The “extra costs” for the 50mm (2 inches) PVC pipe solution are barely noticeable on the invoice. Therefore, the general contractor would basically come out of this for free.
My suggestion that the general contractor digs the roughly 4–5 meter (13–16 feet) trench needed to connect the water supply line to the existing multi-utility connection (which costs them almost nothing but would cost me quite a bit) as a form of “compensation” was not well received :-(
That is hard to understand. Because if I hired a building surveyor to calculate the cost of laying the pipe according to the original plan (which is how it was commissioned), it would end up costing the general contractor more... I don’t want that, because then I’d have the hassle, and the general contractor surely doesn’t want it either because it would be expensive.
Can no one here provide an estimate of the “probable costs” for opening and then resealing the concrete slab? Or is everyone just focused on accusing me of wanting revenge and trying to squeeze money out of this?
The general contractor does not handle bathroom installations. Their work ends at 100mm (4 inches) pipes. So the plumber takes care of it. The “extra costs” for the 50mm (2 inches) PVC pipe solution are barely noticeable on the invoice. Therefore, the general contractor would basically come out of this for free.
My suggestion that the general contractor digs the roughly 4–5 meter (13–16 feet) trench needed to connect the water supply line to the existing multi-utility connection (which costs them almost nothing but would cost me quite a bit) as a form of “compensation” was not well received :-(
That is hard to understand. Because if I hired a building surveyor to calculate the cost of laying the pipe according to the original plan (which is how it was commissioned), it would end up costing the general contractor more... I don’t want that, because then I’d have the hassle, and the general contractor surely doesn’t want it either because it would be expensive.
Can no one here provide an estimate of the “probable costs” for opening and then resealing the concrete slab? Or is everyone just focused on accusing me of wanting revenge and trying to squeeze money out of this?
B
Bauexperte9 Oct 2013 10:17Hello,
No one can walk on water; I assume you can’t either. It is also true that errors happen in construction—people make mistakes. Your installer proposed a solution whose costs are borne by your builder. Does it really matter here how high the costs for the builder will be? I think a defect-free handover should be more important to you. Shooting sparrows with cannons has never been effective.
Regards, Bauexperte
tuxedo schrieb:I don’t believe that, because the construction expert will quickly realize that the minor defect in the execution can be fixed with little effort. A construction expert should not be seen merely as a pretext for compensation claims, but rather as a kind of mediator to ensure that your building project is completed within the scope of the technically and financially contractually agreed services!
It’s incomprehensible. Because if I were to bring in a construction expert to calculate the cost of installing the piping according to the plan (since that was what was commissioned), it would become more expensive for the contractor.... I don’t want that, because then I’d have trouble, and the contractor surely doesn’t want that either, because it gets costly.
tuxedo schrieb:I’m sorry, but it really reads like you are trying to convert a “hypothetical amount”—which, by the way, I don’t understand at all why your vendors are arguing this way. Do they have an old invoice open with the builder and you just happened to come in handy?—into actual services rendered (a credit). I can sympathize with your builder and truly wonder if you realize what you are getting yourself into with this uncompromising argument? What if during the course of the project a “real” defect occurs that cannot be resolved by a substitute measure?
Can’t or won’t anyone here say anything about the “presumed costs” for opening and resealing the foundation slab? Or does everyone just want to accuse me of seeking revenge and trying to get money out of it?
No one can walk on water; I assume you can’t either. It is also true that errors happen in construction—people make mistakes. Your installer proposed a solution whose costs are borne by your builder. Does it really matter here how high the costs for the builder will be? I think a defect-free handover should be more important to you. Shooting sparrows with cannons has never been effective.
Regards, Bauexperte
Hello,
I could understand your argument about “using a sledgehammer to crack a nut” if this wasn’t about 44,000 EUR for “a bit of earthwork plus a ‘simple’ concrete slab.” If this were a 5,000 EUR concrete slab project, I wouldn’t make a fuss over 1,000 EUR.
The subcontractor (sub) only had two tasks:
* Excavating the soil for the concrete slab
* Installing the drainage pipes and pouring the concrete slab
And he “messed up” one of them and now, in my opinion, is trying to elegantly wiggle out of responsibility.
No, not the sellers. I spoke with the carpenter in charge from the timber house company, who manages the technical side of the building projects. I know him quite well by now. They don’t have an outstanding invoice with the subcontractor either. They are also quite “perplexed” that the sub is acting this way now. Until now, he was always willing to compromise and so on.
The timber house company had nothing to do with this. They only created the plans for the concrete slab and the pipes, and we signed the contract for the slab directly with the subcontractor.
Everything else will be done by other companies. If things totally fall apart in further talks with this sub: Fine, I don’t need him anymore.
But by now, I have a suspicion why the sub is so negative: He gave a fixed-price offer. And, contrary to all expectations, the excavation was difficult because of many stones (which seems to only exist on our site; the neighboring property had none), so maybe that’s why he’s mad. But I’m not responsible for that.
No, maybe Jesus can do that, but I don’t know anyone else. Sure, “nobody’s perfect.” When you make mistakes, you usually take responsibility accordingly.
What I don’t really accept: The sub makes a mistake. Fine. The plumber finds a workable alternative solution I can accept. Also fine. The “extra effort” for the plumber is barely noticeable. Whether the pipe is 10 cm (4 inches) long and connects directly to the 100 mm (4 inch) drain, or 250 cm (98 inches) long before connecting to a 100 mm (4 inch) drain… that doesn’t really matter and won’t significantly affect the plumber’s invoice. So: zero cost for the subcontractor, despite a significant mistake.
How did the subcontractor try to fix his mistake? Sure, the problem was solved and the result is acceptable. I don’t really care about the cost amount. What matters to me is that the sub acknowledges the mistake and takes some form of responsibility. The emphasis is on “some form.”
But if he continues to dig in his heels like he is now, it smells like he’s trying to get away without any costs, and that would be a sign for me not to hire or recommend this subcontractor again.
That’s why I’m asking here about the theoretical costs of opening and resealing the concrete slab. Just because there is fortunately a cheaper solution doesn’t mean the theoretical value of the dispute should be reduced to simply using another nearby drainpipe by chance.
Again: even if opening and closing the concrete slab actually cost 1,000 EUR, I don’t care about the amount. I would just want to use that to argue with the sub that he could meet me halfway and make amends by digging the trench in front of the house himself, which would be much cheaper for him than forcing the opening and closing of the slab (which I don’t want anyway).
I could understand your argument about “using a sledgehammer to crack a nut” if this wasn’t about 44,000 EUR for “a bit of earthwork plus a ‘simple’ concrete slab.” If this were a 5,000 EUR concrete slab project, I wouldn’t make a fuss over 1,000 EUR.
The subcontractor (sub) only had two tasks:
* Excavating the soil for the concrete slab
* Installing the drainage pipes and pouring the concrete slab
And he “messed up” one of them and now, in my opinion, is trying to elegantly wiggle out of responsibility.
I’m sorry, but it actually sounds like you want to convert a “hypothetical value” – btw, I don’t understand at all why your sellers are arguing this way. Do they have an outstanding invoice with the subcontractor and you’re just coming in at the right time? – into real services (credit).
No, not the sellers. I spoke with the carpenter in charge from the timber house company, who manages the technical side of the building projects. I know him quite well by now. They don’t have an outstanding invoice with the subcontractor either. They are also quite “perplexed” that the sub is acting this way now. Until now, he was always willing to compromise and so on.
The timber house company had nothing to do with this. They only created the plans for the concrete slab and the pipes, and we signed the contract for the slab directly with the subcontractor.
I can understand your subcontractor well, and I really wonder if you know what you are getting yourself into with this stubborn arguing? What if during the construction phase a “real” defect occurs that can’t be fixed by a replacement measure?
Everything else will be done by other companies. If things totally fall apart in further talks with this sub: Fine, I don’t need him anymore.
But by now, I have a suspicion why the sub is so negative: He gave a fixed-price offer. And, contrary to all expectations, the excavation was difficult because of many stones (which seems to only exist on our site; the neighboring property had none), so maybe that’s why he’s mad. But I’m not responsible for that.
No one can walk on water; I assume you can’t either. It’s also true that construction errors happen – people make mistakes. Your plumber suggested a solution, and the costs are on your subcontractor. Does it really matter how high these costs are for the subcontractor?
No, maybe Jesus can do that, but I don’t know anyone else. Sure, “nobody’s perfect.” When you make mistakes, you usually take responsibility accordingly.
What I don’t really accept: The sub makes a mistake. Fine. The plumber finds a workable alternative solution I can accept. Also fine. The “extra effort” for the plumber is barely noticeable. Whether the pipe is 10 cm (4 inches) long and connects directly to the 100 mm (4 inch) drain, or 250 cm (98 inches) long before connecting to a 100 mm (4 inch) drain… that doesn’t really matter and won’t significantly affect the plumber’s invoice. So: zero cost for the subcontractor, despite a significant mistake.
How did the subcontractor try to fix his mistake? Sure, the problem was solved and the result is acceptable. I don’t really care about the cost amount. What matters to me is that the sub acknowledges the mistake and takes some form of responsibility. The emphasis is on “some form.”
But if he continues to dig in his heels like he is now, it smells like he’s trying to get away without any costs, and that would be a sign for me not to hire or recommend this subcontractor again.
That’s why I’m asking here about the theoretical costs of opening and resealing the concrete slab. Just because there is fortunately a cheaper solution doesn’t mean the theoretical value of the dispute should be reduced to simply using another nearby drainpipe by chance.
Again: even if opening and closing the concrete slab actually cost 1,000 EUR, I don’t care about the amount. I would just want to use that to argue with the sub that he could meet me halfway and make amends by digging the trench in front of the house himself, which would be much cheaper for him than forcing the opening and closing of the slab (which I don’t want anyway).
B
Bauexperte9 Oct 2013 11:06Hello,
I don’t understand the
because, in my opinion, it does not correspond with this statement:
Were the ground conditions known to the builder or not? And how exactly is the 44,000 EUR broken down?
Regards, Bauexperte
I don’t understand the
tuxedo schrieb:
I could understand your argument about "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut" if this weren’t about 44,000 EUR for "a bit of earthworks plus a 'simple' foundation slab." If this had been a 5,000 EUR foundation slab project, I wouldn’t make a big deal about 1,000 EUR.
because, in my opinion, it does not correspond with this statement:
tuxedo schrieb:
The builder only had two tasks:
* Excavating the soil for the foundation slab
* Installing the drainage pipes and pouring the concrete slab
And he "messed up" one of these and now, in my opinion, is trying to smoothly wriggle out of responsibility.
But by now, I have a suspicion why the builder is so negative: He had submitted a fixed-price offer. And contrary to all expectations, the excavation was more difficult due to many stones (which seem to be unique to our site; there were none like this on the neighboring plot), so he may have factored this in. But that is not my fault.
Were the ground conditions known to the builder or not? And how exactly is the 44,000 EUR broken down?
Regards, Bauexperte
About 300 cubic meters (cbm) of soil had to be excavated (slight slope). The site is located in a new development area. The immediate neighbors also had only a slab foundation installed. No larger stones were uncovered there. The excavation volume was roughly comparable. Therefore, the builder assumed that conditions would be similar for us. The excavation work on both properties was carried out by the same subcontractor.
Due to the slight slope, the slab had to be reinforced slightly more at one corner. Otherwise, there would have been 30-40cm (12-16 inches) of air beneath the slab at that corner.
Additional work included the gravel base for the driveway of the double garage plus the terrace, as well as the construction of a small, approximately 8m (26 feet) long wall with short L-shaped blocks.
I obtained two independent quotes for the work. Both were only about 2,000 EUR apart. Other neighbors’ prices were in a similar range. Therefore, I assume the price for the work is reasonable. However, prices are known to vary by federal state and region. In Baden-Württemberg, as I was told, it tends to be a bit more expensive than in northern Germany.
Basically, the soil conditions were known, which is why the company provided a fixed-price offer on their own initiative. But sometimes the devil is in the details...
Due to the slight slope, the slab had to be reinforced slightly more at one corner. Otherwise, there would have been 30-40cm (12-16 inches) of air beneath the slab at that corner.
Additional work included the gravel base for the driveway of the double garage plus the terrace, as well as the construction of a small, approximately 8m (26 feet) long wall with short L-shaped blocks.
I obtained two independent quotes for the work. Both were only about 2,000 EUR apart. Other neighbors’ prices were in a similar range. Therefore, I assume the price for the work is reasonable. However, prices are known to vary by federal state and region. In Baden-Württemberg, as I was told, it tends to be a bit more expensive than in northern Germany.
Did the builder know the soil conditions or not? And how are the 44,000 EUR made up?
Basically, the soil conditions were known, which is why the company provided a fixed-price offer on their own initiative. But sometimes the devil is in the details...
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