ᐅ Sewer pipe embedded in the wrong location within the foundation slab
Created on: 13 Sep 2012 16:04
B
bw-baublogB
bw-baublog13 Sep 2012 16:04Hello,
Yesterday, our foundation slab was poured. Today we visited the site and the basement walls were marked out. We noticed that in one room, which is a living space with underfloor heating, the drain pipe for a utility sink does not come directly out of the slab near the wall but about 1 meter (3.3 feet) away, in the middle of the room. All other pipes come out in the correct places, right next to the walls.
When I asked the construction manager about this, he casually said, "The team probably measured incorrectly." However, he said this is not a problem. They would simply use a smaller drain pipe (2 inches) and route it through the insulation on the foundation slab under the underfloor heating to the main drain.
My question is: Is this an acceptable solution? Does this represent a defect? Could this create a thermal bridge in the insulated house? Or should we not accept this as is?
Thank you in advance for your answers.
Yesterday, our foundation slab was poured. Today we visited the site and the basement walls were marked out. We noticed that in one room, which is a living space with underfloor heating, the drain pipe for a utility sink does not come directly out of the slab near the wall but about 1 meter (3.3 feet) away, in the middle of the room. All other pipes come out in the correct places, right next to the walls.
When I asked the construction manager about this, he casually said, "The team probably measured incorrectly." However, he said this is not a problem. They would simply use a smaller drain pipe (2 inches) and route it through the insulation on the foundation slab under the underfloor heating to the main drain.
My question is: Is this an acceptable solution? Does this represent a defect? Could this create a thermal bridge in the insulated house? Or should we not accept this as is?
Thank you in advance for your answers.
The exact same thing happened to us, and we were offered exactly the same solution.
We built without a basement, directly on the concrete slab. To make things more complicated: the "temporary pipe" would have to go through a wall (timber stud wall), and the entire wastewater pipe is intended for a shower, the exact design of which we do not yet know (because it hasn’t been decided yet – still early in the shell construction phase). However, if this solution were implemented, it would likely limit our options for the shower design.
According to the plan, the pipe for the misplaced connection runs directly beneath the spot where the pipe was supposed to go up. My suggestion was: break up the concrete slab exactly at that point and install a 90° elbow there. Done.
The opposing opinion from the company that messed this up was: this is a load-bearing slab. The hole would have to be about 50x50cm (20x20 inches) in size. That would probably cause structural issues.
To me, the temporary pipe solution sounds like a basic cheap botch job.
I called my home builder to have their structural engineer consulted regarding the load-bearing slab situation. There, too, the temporary pipe solution was dismissed as a basic fix…
At the same time, we have asked the plumber for his opinion on this solution…
I’m curious to see how this develops. I will keep you updated…
We built without a basement, directly on the concrete slab. To make things more complicated: the "temporary pipe" would have to go through a wall (timber stud wall), and the entire wastewater pipe is intended for a shower, the exact design of which we do not yet know (because it hasn’t been decided yet – still early in the shell construction phase). However, if this solution were implemented, it would likely limit our options for the shower design.
According to the plan, the pipe for the misplaced connection runs directly beneath the spot where the pipe was supposed to go up. My suggestion was: break up the concrete slab exactly at that point and install a 90° elbow there. Done.
The opposing opinion from the company that messed this up was: this is a load-bearing slab. The hole would have to be about 50x50cm (20x20 inches) in size. That would probably cause structural issues.
To me, the temporary pipe solution sounds like a basic cheap botch job.
I called my home builder to have their structural engineer consulted regarding the load-bearing slab situation. There, too, the temporary pipe solution was dismissed as a basic fix…
At the same time, we have asked the plumber for his opinion on this solution…
I’m curious to see how this develops. I will keep you updated…
I don’t see any problem with that. A 50mm (2-inch) HT pipe is often installed along the ceiling to connect showers, bathtubs, or washbasins to the drainpipes. The necessary slope just needs to be maintained, which shouldn’t be an issue over a distance of 1.00 m (3.3 ft). If the basement is being converted into living space, you probably have at least 100mm (4 inches) of insulation on the floor anyway, so there would still be about 50mm (2 inches) of coverage left, right? Personally, I wouldn’t worry about this solution, although mistakes do occasionally happen.
So, here is an update:
I have been advised by several parties against opening the concrete slab. It’s not just about making an opening; you have to cut completely through the slab down to the ground. The pipe to be corrected is located there. However, there are no structural concerns (I have approval from a structural engineer).
I still don’t agree with the solution of routing a 2-inch (50mm) pipe through the wall into the hallway. If there is ever a problem, then I would have the clean water/waste in two rooms.
My plumber, however, said he could easily use another drain in the bathroom. Although it is 2.5 meters (8 feet) away, the floor construction of about 16cm (6 inches) to the finished floor surface provides enough slope.
The issue now is different:
The builder wants to resolve the issue by only covering the cost for the solution with the 2-inch (50mm) pipe through the wall into the hallway. He says if it costs between 100 and 200 EUR, that would be a lot already.
But I don’t want to settle that easily. After all, he made a significant mistake and needs to take proper responsibility.
My question to the experts here:
Roughly estimated: What would it cost to break open a nearly 12-inch (30cm) thick reinforced concrete slab on an area of 50 by 50cm (20 by 20 inches), connect a 4-inch (100mm) pipe at the bottom, and properly seal everything afterward? Of course, it should be considered that there is a membrane/fleece or similar within the slab construction that needs to be properly restored.
Because this is essentially the main point of contention here.
The person from the building company (who were not responsible for the mistake but have been very cooperative with information and assistance) said: "Two workers could easily spend two days on this. Roughly 20 hours at 50 EUR per hour. The cost will likely start around 600-800 EUR."
20 hours times 50 EUR is 1,000 EUR.
Is this rough estimate about right? Can anyone confirm?
Best regards,
Alex
I have been advised by several parties against opening the concrete slab. It’s not just about making an opening; you have to cut completely through the slab down to the ground. The pipe to be corrected is located there. However, there are no structural concerns (I have approval from a structural engineer).
I still don’t agree with the solution of routing a 2-inch (50mm) pipe through the wall into the hallway. If there is ever a problem, then I would have the clean water/waste in two rooms.
My plumber, however, said he could easily use another drain in the bathroom. Although it is 2.5 meters (8 feet) away, the floor construction of about 16cm (6 inches) to the finished floor surface provides enough slope.
The issue now is different:
The builder wants to resolve the issue by only covering the cost for the solution with the 2-inch (50mm) pipe through the wall into the hallway. He says if it costs between 100 and 200 EUR, that would be a lot already.
But I don’t want to settle that easily. After all, he made a significant mistake and needs to take proper responsibility.
My question to the experts here:
Roughly estimated: What would it cost to break open a nearly 12-inch (30cm) thick reinforced concrete slab on an area of 50 by 50cm (20 by 20 inches), connect a 4-inch (100mm) pipe at the bottom, and properly seal everything afterward? Of course, it should be considered that there is a membrane/fleece or similar within the slab construction that needs to be properly restored.
Because this is essentially the main point of contention here.
The person from the building company (who were not responsible for the mistake but have been very cooperative with information and assistance) said: "Two workers could easily spend two days on this. Roughly 20 hours at 50 EUR per hour. The cost will likely start around 600-800 EUR."
20 hours times 50 EUR is 1,000 EUR.
Is this rough estimate about right? Can anyone confirm?
Best regards,
Alex
Sorry Alex, but I think you’re overreacting. As long as the solution is technically sound, it’s not a big deal if the pipe comes out somewhere else. Once the screed is in place, you won’t even notice it. It doesn’t cause you any restrictions. Why do you want to make such a big issue out of it? There will be many other things to deal with...
Sorry, I didn’t express myself clearly enough...
Since several people advised me against opening the foundation slab, I now want to follow the installer’s proposed solution: connecting a 50mm (2-inch) plastic waste pipe inside the bathroom to another drain.
However, the builder only wants to cover the costs of this solution. And that’s exactly where the problem lies:
The value of the defect corresponds to the costs of executing the work according to the original plan. Roughly estimated by the timber house builder, that would be about 1000 EUR. The alternative solution with the 50mm (2-inch) waste pipe, which is not even done by him but by someone else, costs less than 100 EUR. This will be lost in the installation invoice...
An example:
If I order a blue car from the dealer but receive it in red, I wouldn’t accept a real fur fox tail worth 100 EUR on the antenna as compensation for the wrong color. If repainting cost 1000 EUR, then a proper compensation should be more than just 100 EUR. Something like a set of aluminum rims for 800 EUR could be an option. I’d be willing to let the remaining 200 EUR slide. Some kind of goodwill gesture should be visible.
So here’s my question: Is the rough calculation of 1000 EUR for completing the work as originally planned (which is probably how a building expert would calculate it) realistic?
I’m not insisting on getting 1000 EUR paid out. I just have another task for him that will probably fall within this price range. But for further argumentation (he is currently completely obstructive) it would be helpful to know what the dispute value involves (opening the foundation slab, making the connection, professionally sealing it). I could ask him directly, but since he is refusing to cooperate, I probably won’t get a useful answer here.
Best regards
Alex
Since several people advised me against opening the foundation slab, I now want to follow the installer’s proposed solution: connecting a 50mm (2-inch) plastic waste pipe inside the bathroom to another drain.
However, the builder only wants to cover the costs of this solution. And that’s exactly where the problem lies:
The value of the defect corresponds to the costs of executing the work according to the original plan. Roughly estimated by the timber house builder, that would be about 1000 EUR. The alternative solution with the 50mm (2-inch) waste pipe, which is not even done by him but by someone else, costs less than 100 EUR. This will be lost in the installation invoice...
An example:
If I order a blue car from the dealer but receive it in red, I wouldn’t accept a real fur fox tail worth 100 EUR on the antenna as compensation for the wrong color. If repainting cost 1000 EUR, then a proper compensation should be more than just 100 EUR. Something like a set of aluminum rims for 800 EUR could be an option. I’d be willing to let the remaining 200 EUR slide. Some kind of goodwill gesture should be visible.
So here’s my question: Is the rough calculation of 1000 EUR for completing the work as originally planned (which is probably how a building expert would calculate it) realistic?
I’m not insisting on getting 1000 EUR paid out. I just have another task for him that will probably fall within this price range. But for further argumentation (he is currently completely obstructive) it would be helpful to know what the dispute value involves (opening the foundation slab, making the connection, professionally sealing it). I could ask him directly, but since he is refusing to cooperate, I probably won’t get a useful answer here.
Best regards
Alex
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