H
HubiTrubi4015 Dec 2022 01:14Hello everyone,
I’ll try to cover several questions in one thread. About nine months ago (before we moved in), we had hardwood flooring installed.
On the ground floor, it was glued down, and overall I’m quite satisfied. What I do notice, however, is that there are spots where, if I run my finger over the floor, it sounds hollow. Not that there’s a hole underneath, but it seems as if there is no glue beneath the floorboard in those areas. These are wide plank boards, about 2 meters (6.5 feet) long, and the hollow spots are always small. Mostly near the edges, e.g., by doors or walls, but sometimes between two boards. Everything is still firmly in place, nothing moves.
A friend of mine also had wide plank boards installed by another specialist company, and he said he has the same issue. So now I wonder if this is "normal." Hopefully, it doesn’t have any drawbacks.
2nd question: On the upper floor, I had the same type of hardwood (engineered wood flooring) installed as a floating floor. Before the furniture was in place, I noticed a clearly springy feeling when walking on it. The craftsman said that would change once the furniture was in the room—and he was right. In the rooms, the feeling has indeed improved. However, in the hallway, it is still noticeable, and there is one spot with a visible dip where the floor noticeably sinks. You can also hear a slight creaking sound when walking in the hallway. I mentioned this to him back then, and he said he had added extra support under that area. My first guess was that the boards would settle over time. But after summer and autumn, it hasn’t improved. There is also no furniture in the hallway, so the effect that helped in the other rooms can’t happen here. Since the boards are floating and not fixed to the screed, I wonder if this is acceptable. Otherwise, I will have to file a complaint. It’s definitely still within the warranty period.
In the basement, he installed vinyl flooring, also floating. I notice small dips in a few spots in the room. I think the subfloor is not perfectly level. Is this tolerable? It is rigid vinyl, so I don’t think it’s harmful to the floor, but if I want to complain, I can’t just wait another two years. Reinstalling the floor there would be a hassle, especially since I don’t find it very disturbing.
In the attic, cork laminate was laid on chipboard. It was clear that this would be challenging. During renovation, it was obvious that the floor wasn’t completely level and the chipboard was installed incorrectly. According to the floor installer, fixing this was neither necessary nor cost-effective. But you can see with the naked eye that the cork laminate follows the unevenness of the subfloor across the room (from the middle of the room towards the stairs, the floor slopes slightly). You can also hear this when walking over it. Now I don’t know if the squeaking and creaking are caused only by the chipboard underneath. The neighbors have carpet there, and their floor makes noises as well. I can’t blame the floor installer here because the subfloor is what it is, but I wonder if the cork laminate will eventually get damaged because of this.
Lastly, the strangest thing: this company carried out most of the renovation work for me.
I’ll try to cover several questions in one thread. About nine months ago (before we moved in), we had hardwood flooring installed.
On the ground floor, it was glued down, and overall I’m quite satisfied. What I do notice, however, is that there are spots where, if I run my finger over the floor, it sounds hollow. Not that there’s a hole underneath, but it seems as if there is no glue beneath the floorboard in those areas. These are wide plank boards, about 2 meters (6.5 feet) long, and the hollow spots are always small. Mostly near the edges, e.g., by doors or walls, but sometimes between two boards. Everything is still firmly in place, nothing moves.
A friend of mine also had wide plank boards installed by another specialist company, and he said he has the same issue. So now I wonder if this is "normal." Hopefully, it doesn’t have any drawbacks.
2nd question: On the upper floor, I had the same type of hardwood (engineered wood flooring) installed as a floating floor. Before the furniture was in place, I noticed a clearly springy feeling when walking on it. The craftsman said that would change once the furniture was in the room—and he was right. In the rooms, the feeling has indeed improved. However, in the hallway, it is still noticeable, and there is one spot with a visible dip where the floor noticeably sinks. You can also hear a slight creaking sound when walking in the hallway. I mentioned this to him back then, and he said he had added extra support under that area. My first guess was that the boards would settle over time. But after summer and autumn, it hasn’t improved. There is also no furniture in the hallway, so the effect that helped in the other rooms can’t happen here. Since the boards are floating and not fixed to the screed, I wonder if this is acceptable. Otherwise, I will have to file a complaint. It’s definitely still within the warranty period.
In the basement, he installed vinyl flooring, also floating. I notice small dips in a few spots in the room. I think the subfloor is not perfectly level. Is this tolerable? It is rigid vinyl, so I don’t think it’s harmful to the floor, but if I want to complain, I can’t just wait another two years. Reinstalling the floor there would be a hassle, especially since I don’t find it very disturbing.
In the attic, cork laminate was laid on chipboard. It was clear that this would be challenging. During renovation, it was obvious that the floor wasn’t completely level and the chipboard was installed incorrectly. According to the floor installer, fixing this was neither necessary nor cost-effective. But you can see with the naked eye that the cork laminate follows the unevenness of the subfloor across the room (from the middle of the room towards the stairs, the floor slopes slightly). You can also hear this when walking over it. Now I don’t know if the squeaking and creaking are caused only by the chipboard underneath. The neighbors have carpet there, and their floor makes noises as well. I can’t blame the floor installer here because the subfloor is what it is, but I wonder if the cork laminate will eventually get damaged because of this.
Lastly, the strangest thing: this company carried out most of the renovation work for me.
H
HubiTrubi4015 Dec 2022 01:29...the first message no longer fit...
Finally, the strangest part. This company carried out most of the renovation for me: floors, walls (wallpapering and painting), as well as installing doors (they are an interior designer). According to the quote, the entire job was just over 30,000 euros (about 33,000 dollars). I received installment invoices for partial payments, which I paid immediately. However, I never received the last installment invoice. I have no exact idea how much it will be, but I estimate between 5,000 and 7,000 euros (about 5,500 to 7,700 dollars). At first, I thought okay, maybe there would be some final adjustments after moving in, but it’s now been 8 or 9 months.
My lawyer said it might have something to do with the fiscal year-end or taxes, which would not be unusual. Legally, the claim does not expire quickly. Still, I find it strange. I think if I don’t hear anything by the end of the year, I will inquire. I have the money set aside, but of course, it would be good to settle this, and it is also common that at the end you can’t clearly track what else he includes. Some things differ from the quote. For example, we initially agreed that he would remove all the wallpaper. Then we decided to keep one room as is. Then he had to do more extensive repairs to the screed, which surely costs a bit more (filling cracks). In addition, installing the interior doors was added (I estimate about another 1,500 euros (about 1,650 dollars) for 5 doors in total). I supplied the doors myself. At the same time, I have the problem that I might still need to claim the above defects(?). What do you think? Have you experienced this, or is this common practice in the construction trade?
Finally, the strangest part. This company carried out most of the renovation for me: floors, walls (wallpapering and painting), as well as installing doors (they are an interior designer). According to the quote, the entire job was just over 30,000 euros (about 33,000 dollars). I received installment invoices for partial payments, which I paid immediately. However, I never received the last installment invoice. I have no exact idea how much it will be, but I estimate between 5,000 and 7,000 euros (about 5,500 to 7,700 dollars). At first, I thought okay, maybe there would be some final adjustments after moving in, but it’s now been 8 or 9 months.
My lawyer said it might have something to do with the fiscal year-end or taxes, which would not be unusual. Legally, the claim does not expire quickly. Still, I find it strange. I think if I don’t hear anything by the end of the year, I will inquire. I have the money set aside, but of course, it would be good to settle this, and it is also common that at the end you can’t clearly track what else he includes. Some things differ from the quote. For example, we initially agreed that he would remove all the wallpaper. Then we decided to keep one room as is. Then he had to do more extensive repairs to the screed, which surely costs a bit more (filling cracks). In addition, installing the interior doors was added (I estimate about another 1,500 euros (about 1,650 dollars) for 5 doors in total). I supplied the doors myself. At the same time, I have the problem that I might still need to claim the above defects(?). What do you think? Have you experienced this, or is this common practice in the construction trade?
H
HilfeHilfe15 Dec 2022 07:53These are partly natural materials, so if the floor wasn’t properly leveled beforehand, you will always have unevenness in the floor.
Regarding the calculation, there will be additional costs coming.
Regarding the calculation, there will be additional costs coming.
H
HubiTrubi4015 Dec 2022 11:00HilfeHilfe schrieb:
These are partly natural materials; if the ground wasn’t leveled with concrete beforehand, you will always have irregularities in the floor. It has already been leveled. And yes, I also expect the invoice to come later.
@ HubiTrubi40:
There are two points I would like to discuss here.
Point 1 concerns the hollow spots you can hear when scratching the surface with your fingernails.
The hardwood floor is glued to the substrate, and it should be noted that these are wide plank floorboards.
There are tolerance limits for the flatness of the subfloor (usually a screed with leveling compound), which are specified in DIN 18202 Table 3.
If nothing else was agreed between you and the contractor, the standard row 3 in Table 3 applies by default. This means that a deviation of up to 4mm (0.16 inches) is allowed over a 1 meter (3.3 feet) measuring distance (this would be the “gap” under a straightedge).
When installing wide plank floorboards, it is possible that these might not bridge the "indentation" in the screed surface, causing the board to “float” in some spots.
In practice, the installer usually weighs down the flooring element before the adhesive cures so that it fully embeds in the adhesive bed.
However, this is not always possible or effective 100%. This means hollow areas under glued parquet boards cannot always be avoided.
What is permissible?
A look into the comments of DIN 18365 helps here (such information is not included in most standards). It states (as the current state of technology) that hollow-sounding areas do not constitute a defect as long as the installed units do not move under load.
Since a 100% adhesive coverage of the rear side of the elements is not always achievable, an adhesive coverage of at least 40% is considered the minimum for sufficient bonding.
-----------------------------
Point 2 concerns floating-installed prefinished parquet elements, which have been called “multi-layer parquet elements” for several years.
If the boards bend downward when walked on or under pressure, this is only conditionally acceptable. This is because, as mentioned earlier, a tolerance-compliant flatness of the screed allows for unevenness. These are supported by the loosely laid (floating) parquet boards without pressure applied but will deflect when walked on.
Here, caution is necessary:
The standards do not specify acceptable limits, so practical experience should guide the assessment.
If the tolerance for screed flatness according to DIN 18202 Table 3 row 3 is 4mm (0.16 inches) over 1 meter (3.3 feet) measuring distance, then the floating parquet boards installed as a single system should not deflect more than 4mm (0.16 inches) either.
This inspection is performed on the parquet surface, allowing for non-destructive testing even afterward.
Greater deflections pose the risk that the locking mechanism between the “clicked” board elements may unintentionally open or the milling on the long and/or end sides may break off, damaging the element.
-------------------------------------
How should you proceed (this is not legal advice!!):
For points 1 and 2, you can easily and reliably determine the magnitude of any hollow spots and deflections yourself.
If your findings exceed what is considered normal or unavoidable, it would be advisable to notify the responsible company in writing.
This letter must clearly include the keyword DEFECT NOTICE in the subject line (in bold letters DEFECT NOTICE), which stops the agreed warranty period.
It must clearly describe the complaint and state that you are setting a deadline of .... weeks (4 weeks is usual) for defect correction. Any outstanding payments should be withheld as a precaution.
---------------------------
You can see that the subject, although seemingly simple at first, contains several “traps.”
The inspections describe an objectively verifiable defect situation that is well-founded.
Good luck: KlaRa
There are two points I would like to discuss here.
Point 1 concerns the hollow spots you can hear when scratching the surface with your fingernails.
The hardwood floor is glued to the substrate, and it should be noted that these are wide plank floorboards.
There are tolerance limits for the flatness of the subfloor (usually a screed with leveling compound), which are specified in DIN 18202 Table 3.
If nothing else was agreed between you and the contractor, the standard row 3 in Table 3 applies by default. This means that a deviation of up to 4mm (0.16 inches) is allowed over a 1 meter (3.3 feet) measuring distance (this would be the “gap” under a straightedge).
When installing wide plank floorboards, it is possible that these might not bridge the "indentation" in the screed surface, causing the board to “float” in some spots.
In practice, the installer usually weighs down the flooring element before the adhesive cures so that it fully embeds in the adhesive bed.
However, this is not always possible or effective 100%. This means hollow areas under glued parquet boards cannot always be avoided.
What is permissible?
A look into the comments of DIN 18365 helps here (such information is not included in most standards). It states (as the current state of technology) that hollow-sounding areas do not constitute a defect as long as the installed units do not move under load.
Since a 100% adhesive coverage of the rear side of the elements is not always achievable, an adhesive coverage of at least 40% is considered the minimum for sufficient bonding.
-----------------------------
Point 2 concerns floating-installed prefinished parquet elements, which have been called “multi-layer parquet elements” for several years.
If the boards bend downward when walked on or under pressure, this is only conditionally acceptable. This is because, as mentioned earlier, a tolerance-compliant flatness of the screed allows for unevenness. These are supported by the loosely laid (floating) parquet boards without pressure applied but will deflect when walked on.
Here, caution is necessary:
The standards do not specify acceptable limits, so practical experience should guide the assessment.
If the tolerance for screed flatness according to DIN 18202 Table 3 row 3 is 4mm (0.16 inches) over 1 meter (3.3 feet) measuring distance, then the floating parquet boards installed as a single system should not deflect more than 4mm (0.16 inches) either.
This inspection is performed on the parquet surface, allowing for non-destructive testing even afterward.
Greater deflections pose the risk that the locking mechanism between the “clicked” board elements may unintentionally open or the milling on the long and/or end sides may break off, damaging the element.
-------------------------------------
How should you proceed (this is not legal advice!!):
For points 1 and 2, you can easily and reliably determine the magnitude of any hollow spots and deflections yourself.
If your findings exceed what is considered normal or unavoidable, it would be advisable to notify the responsible company in writing.
This letter must clearly include the keyword DEFECT NOTICE in the subject line (in bold letters DEFECT NOTICE), which stops the agreed warranty period.
It must clearly describe the complaint and state that you are setting a deadline of .... weeks (4 weeks is usual) for defect correction. Any outstanding payments should be withheld as a precaution.
---------------------------
You can see that the subject, although seemingly simple at first, contains several “traps.”
The inspections describe an objectively verifiable defect situation that is well-founded.
Good luck: KlaRa
H
HubiTrubi407 Apr 2023 12:39HilfeHilfe schrieb:
Regarding the invoice, there is still something pending I called about this four weeks ago to ask what was going on with the invoice. He said he hadn’t gotten to it yet. It’s already been a year since the project was completed. Can someone tell me what might be the reason for this? Honestly, it’s frustrating not knowing what to expect. He also couldn’t give me an approximate amount. I find this behavior quite strange. When I asked him to take a look at the defects I mentioned above, he responded that he would send someone, but that it’s difficult at the moment. I also emailed him but haven’t received any response so far. His wife and business partner told me on the phone yesterday that he had received my email and hadn’t forgotten about it. I think I’ll wait another week and then submit a written notice of defects. Hopefully, that will get a reaction. It’s really annoying what some contractors get away with these days. Just selling, but no longer providing any service. I know this may not apply to everyone, but obviously to many.
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