ᐅ The post of our driveway gate extends about 10 cm onto the neighboring property.
Created on: 29 Jun 2020 20:33
M
Medvedev
Hello friends,
I’m new here and hope that this is the right forum area for my concern and that you can help me.
We own a two-family house in Cologne, where we live as a family. Our future neighbor has had the neighboring house demolished and is now building new on the property. We have owned our house since 1995. Our house was built in 1984. We have a driveway gate with two masonry pillars.
The architect of our future neighbor verbally informed us today that he intends to build a 1.5 m (5 feet) high wall on our property line. For this purpose, he has already had an existing wooden fence, which belonged to us, removed without our consent. When we addressed this, he said he thought the fence belonged to the client, his principal.
He now also claims that the masonry pillar of our driveway gate (seen from the street on the left) is built about 10 cm (4 inches) onto the property of our future neighbor and must therefore be cut back or removed so that a flush wall can be erected.
The same applies to three wooden posts of our carport, which also protrude about 10 cm (4 inches) onto the neighbor’s property on the side.
Both would have to be dismantled as soon as possible, at our expense, so that construction can continue.
He said he would provide us with his demands in writing, which we would then have to sign accordingly.
Until now, we have always assumed that our gate pillar fully stands within our property boundaries (40 x 40 cm (16 x 16 inches)).
As proof, the architect handed us a copy of a city-approved drawing from Cologne (stamped), which is supposed to show that the pillar and posts protrude onto the neighboring property.
However, the pillar and posts in question are not marked on the site plan.
According to what I found online, a neighbor’s right regarding dismantling or similar claims expires after three years. What do you think about this?
Hopefully, you can give us some expert advice. We are grateful for your help!
Best regards,
Medvedev
I’m new here and hope that this is the right forum area for my concern and that you can help me.
We own a two-family house in Cologne, where we live as a family. Our future neighbor has had the neighboring house demolished and is now building new on the property. We have owned our house since 1995. Our house was built in 1984. We have a driveway gate with two masonry pillars.
The architect of our future neighbor verbally informed us today that he intends to build a 1.5 m (5 feet) high wall on our property line. For this purpose, he has already had an existing wooden fence, which belonged to us, removed without our consent. When we addressed this, he said he thought the fence belonged to the client, his principal.
He now also claims that the masonry pillar of our driveway gate (seen from the street on the left) is built about 10 cm (4 inches) onto the property of our future neighbor and must therefore be cut back or removed so that a flush wall can be erected.
The same applies to three wooden posts of our carport, which also protrude about 10 cm (4 inches) onto the neighbor’s property on the side.
Both would have to be dismantled as soon as possible, at our expense, so that construction can continue.
He said he would provide us with his demands in writing, which we would then have to sign accordingly.
Until now, we have always assumed that our gate pillar fully stands within our property boundaries (40 x 40 cm (16 x 16 inches)).
As proof, the architect handed us a copy of a city-approved drawing from Cologne (stamped), which is supposed to show that the pillar and posts protrude onto the neighboring property.
However, the pillar and posts in question are not marked on the site plan.
According to what I found online, a neighbor’s right regarding dismantling or similar claims expires after three years. What do you think about this?
Hopefully, you can give us some expert advice. We are grateful for your help!
Best regards,
Medvedev
Tolentino schrieb:
And how is a layperson supposed to assess that? As a layperson, I would measure the distance between the boundary markers and the neighboring markers. That should at least serve as an indication.
Otherwise, the architect should first clearly identify the boundary as they believe it to be. In particular, they need to clarify their confusing drawing:
Medvedev schrieb:
As proof, the architect gives us a city-approved drawing from Cologne (with an official stamp as a copy) that is supposed to show that the post and the tenon extend into the neighboring property.
However, the posts and tenons in question are not shown on the site plan drawing. Furthermore, I would look through my own documents regarding the land and building and check them for plausibility. For example, if the plot is supposed to be 15 meters (50 feet) wide, but your own building measures more than 15 meters (50 feet), that would be another indication.
cschiko schrieb:
If the neighbor or architect insists on their opinion, you won’t avoid a formal boundary determination. If the property owner doesn’t want an amicable agreement, then that will have to be done. How much does such a determination usually cost?
P
pagoni202030 Jun 2020 14:09Tolentino schrieb:
And how is a layperson supposed to judge that?
In the end, he believes he is right, causes a fuss, and the neighbor is actually correct. Or vice versa, there’s a boundary stone on his side, he thinks the neighbor is right, but in reality, he has 10cm (4 inches) more. Then he ends up giving away land. In my opinion, a specialist is definitely needed here. Find the boundary points yourself and, if possible, measure them with a string as @Mycraft describes.
If I then consider that I am in the right regarding the current boundary situation, I would politely and clearly inform the architect, show the evidence, and ask for urgent attention.
Then it would be HIS turn to prove the opposite with an official survey or similar. Whether he would bear those costs remains to be seen, but initially, I shouldn't have to question a marked boundary point. That’s precisely why it was set.
You are, of course, right that causing a fuss is generally inappropriate; otherwise, the original poster would have an ulcer even before moving in.
If the architect could officially prove the opposite, I could also understand that the new neighbor would want to use their entire property. Otherwise, I fear it would go to court, and even then, one wouldn’t really be in the right.
In that case, I wouldn’t want to live there anymore… therefore, I would always aim for a peaceful solution, wall or no wall.
pagoni2020 schrieb:
I’m afraid that otherwise it would have to go to court, and even there you might not really win. There would still be the question of whether a dismantling is proportionate. That certainly depends on the overall situation. The court would have to assess that.
However, I like the idea of putting the ball back in the opposing party’s court. Let them prove that the boundary has actually been built over. What can the architect do—order the construction workers to tear down posts and the carport? Hopefully, it’s clear to them that they can’t just do that without proper authorization. So politely inform them that everything is on your own property and that you would only accept otherwise if a surveyor confirms it.
By the way, something similar happened with my property: a resurvey revealed that the neighbor had built their shed across the boundary line. The result was the property being divided, and the neighbor had to buy an 11m² (120 sq ft) section. No dismantling was required. (This happened when the city wanted to sell my current lot as a building plot.) I would have actually liked to keep that 11m² (120 sq ft), considering the total size is only 308m² (3,315 sq ft).
A
Aphrodithe30 Jun 2020 15:33One should, of course, also keep in mind the neighborhood law! If the original poster initially says no wall, then there will be no wall for the time being, and I think this leaves a lot of room for negotiation. As already mentioned, the unauthorized removal of the old fence also provides considerable negotiation leverage.
Has the house already been surveyed, or is the appointment still pending? When the surveyors are there, they can also precisely determine the boundary line. This is usually not a complicated task and is generally part of the house surveying process. It should definitely be possible without much hassle.
Even if the method is not ideal, the neighbor does have the right to build on their own property. Ten centimeters (about 4 inches) is not insignificant, and over several meters in length, this can add up to several square meters, which depending on the land price, can easily exceed €1000. Usually, 10 centimeters (about 4 inches) isn’t a problem, but the space might actually be needed. There are also narrow plots where, if a 3-meter (about 10 feet) setback must be maintained on both sides, losing 10 centimeters can suddenly be problematic.
First of all, it’s important to clarify whether these claims are actually legally valid. The burden of proof clearly lies with the neighbor.
Even if the method is not ideal, the neighbor does have the right to build on their own property. Ten centimeters (about 4 inches) is not insignificant, and over several meters in length, this can add up to several square meters, which depending on the land price, can easily exceed €1000. Usually, 10 centimeters (about 4 inches) isn’t a problem, but the space might actually be needed. There are also narrow plots where, if a 3-meter (about 10 feet) setback must be maintained on both sides, losing 10 centimeters can suddenly be problematic.
First of all, it’s important to clarify whether these claims are actually legally valid. The burden of proof clearly lies with the neighbor.
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