bibliophilia25 Dec 2015 22:39After our heating installer canceled at short notice, we hired a new one. Everything happened very quickly (we were under time pressure, and the installer is a self-employed friend of my brother-in-law) and unfortunately without a detailed cost estimate.
In an initial meeting, we explained what we wanted:
- Rough installation (water supply, wastewater, and ventilation)
- Underfloor heating
- Gas boiler with solar thermal system, including solar piping and a suitable combination unit
He gave us a rough cost estimate. Rough installation €2500 (about $2700), and we would discuss everything else later.
Yes, I know. That was stupid of us.
Now most of the work is finished. So far, we have made three interim payments totaling €21,000 (about $22,700). Before each payment, he only said that our money had been used up and that he needed just a bit more.
After the last payment (€12,000 or about $13,000), he said that was it and that the final costs would be only about €500-1000 (about $540-$1080) extra.
That sounded logical, and there wasn’t much left to do—just the installation of the solar system and connection of the wastewater pipe. We then asked him for a detailed breakdown of what we had been paying for all this time (before, he had told us this was unusual with interim payments), including a log of hours worked and a list of materials with prices.
He then connected the wastewater pipe and left a handwritten list in the house. It included about 120 delivery note numbers (from wherever, and we don’t know what we’re supposed to do with these numbers) with prices next to them. But there was no explanation of what exactly was bought, nor whether transport or other costs were included.
For instance, he had the underfloor heating pipe delivered three times on three consecutive days, even though we had calculated and told him in advance that we needed about three rolls. Each roll arrived separately by freight, and after every empty roll he said, “Oh, we need some more. I’ll call right away.” This continued like that. Some days, the courier arrived 3-4 times with individual clamps or other small items. If the freight company charges €40 (about $43) per delivery, I don’t see why we should pay for that. He could have planned better and ordered proactively. He always had enough money from us.
Regarding the hours worked, he provided dates and total hours, but at least four entries seem exaggerated. Of course, we can’t prove this. And he never gave us timesheets to sign.
At the end of the handwritten list, the shocker: He now wants another €5500 (about $5900) because his hours and other costs turned out to be more expensive than expected. Additionally, all the interim payments he received were apparently net prices. He now wants to charge 19% VAT (value-added tax) on everything, including the €21,000 (about $22,700) we’ve already paid.
He also forgot to install the solar system, allegedly because we never discussed it. Curiously, though, he did lay the solar piping to the roof, and the heating unit he ordered for us has a 300-liter (about 80-gallon) buffer tank. So the solar system and its connection aren’t even included in the extra €5000.
Material costs come into play again. He could have bought a complete package of the solar system and heating system. Such a package costs (at least online—dealer prices are probably different) about the same as he charged us for the standard boiler. The solar system alone would cost an additional €1500 (about $1600), plus installation costs.
So I expect that on top of the €5500 (about $5900) he’s asking for now, another €2000-3000 (about $2150-$3200) will come.
This already goes way beyond our last understanding of “at most €500-1000 (about $540-$1080) more.”
From my brother-in-law, we know that the installer is generally poor at estimating costs, and he is apparently deep in financial trouble. It feels to me like he’s just trying to milk this project as a cash cow to pay off his other outstanding bills. But that is pure speculation.
We have a meeting with him next week to discuss the invoice.
Here are some questions:
- Can we demand that he shows us the invoices for the materials?
- Can we withhold partial payments, for example, because he had every single screw delivered separately by the freight company?
- Can we withhold the extra charges related to the solar system because he messed up buying the right equipment?
- What about the evidence for hours worked? Who bears the burden of proof?
- Can we hold him to his last verbal statement that we would only owe another €500-1000 (about $540-$1080)?
- Should we consult a lawyer beforehand? If we end up refusing to pay €3000-4000 (about $3200-$4300), that’s probably no longer a small amount for an amicable settlement.
- How would this case likely stand in court? How much are verbal agreements worth? Who needs to prove what?
Please spare me the lectures. Yes, we were stupid. And yes, we are kicking ourselves for it. But that’s not something I can change now. We’re just trying to limit the damage.
In an initial meeting, we explained what we wanted:
- Rough installation (water supply, wastewater, and ventilation)
- Underfloor heating
- Gas boiler with solar thermal system, including solar piping and a suitable combination unit
He gave us a rough cost estimate. Rough installation €2500 (about $2700), and we would discuss everything else later.
Yes, I know. That was stupid of us.
Now most of the work is finished. So far, we have made three interim payments totaling €21,000 (about $22,700). Before each payment, he only said that our money had been used up and that he needed just a bit more.
After the last payment (€12,000 or about $13,000), he said that was it and that the final costs would be only about €500-1000 (about $540-$1080) extra.
That sounded logical, and there wasn’t much left to do—just the installation of the solar system and connection of the wastewater pipe. We then asked him for a detailed breakdown of what we had been paying for all this time (before, he had told us this was unusual with interim payments), including a log of hours worked and a list of materials with prices.
He then connected the wastewater pipe and left a handwritten list in the house. It included about 120 delivery note numbers (from wherever, and we don’t know what we’re supposed to do with these numbers) with prices next to them. But there was no explanation of what exactly was bought, nor whether transport or other costs were included.
For instance, he had the underfloor heating pipe delivered three times on three consecutive days, even though we had calculated and told him in advance that we needed about three rolls. Each roll arrived separately by freight, and after every empty roll he said, “Oh, we need some more. I’ll call right away.” This continued like that. Some days, the courier arrived 3-4 times with individual clamps or other small items. If the freight company charges €40 (about $43) per delivery, I don’t see why we should pay for that. He could have planned better and ordered proactively. He always had enough money from us.
Regarding the hours worked, he provided dates and total hours, but at least four entries seem exaggerated. Of course, we can’t prove this. And he never gave us timesheets to sign.
At the end of the handwritten list, the shocker: He now wants another €5500 (about $5900) because his hours and other costs turned out to be more expensive than expected. Additionally, all the interim payments he received were apparently net prices. He now wants to charge 19% VAT (value-added tax) on everything, including the €21,000 (about $22,700) we’ve already paid.
He also forgot to install the solar system, allegedly because we never discussed it. Curiously, though, he did lay the solar piping to the roof, and the heating unit he ordered for us has a 300-liter (about 80-gallon) buffer tank. So the solar system and its connection aren’t even included in the extra €5000.
Material costs come into play again. He could have bought a complete package of the solar system and heating system. Such a package costs (at least online—dealer prices are probably different) about the same as he charged us for the standard boiler. The solar system alone would cost an additional €1500 (about $1600), plus installation costs.
So I expect that on top of the €5500 (about $5900) he’s asking for now, another €2000-3000 (about $2150-$3200) will come.
This already goes way beyond our last understanding of “at most €500-1000 (about $540-$1080) more.”
From my brother-in-law, we know that the installer is generally poor at estimating costs, and he is apparently deep in financial trouble. It feels to me like he’s just trying to milk this project as a cash cow to pay off his other outstanding bills. But that is pure speculation.
We have a meeting with him next week to discuss the invoice.
Here are some questions:
- Can we demand that he shows us the invoices for the materials?
- Can we withhold partial payments, for example, because he had every single screw delivered separately by the freight company?
- Can we withhold the extra charges related to the solar system because he messed up buying the right equipment?
- What about the evidence for hours worked? Who bears the burden of proof?
- Can we hold him to his last verbal statement that we would only owe another €500-1000 (about $540-$1080)?
- Should we consult a lawyer beforehand? If we end up refusing to pay €3000-4000 (about $3200-$4300), that’s probably no longer a small amount for an amicable settlement.
- How would this case likely stand in court? How much are verbal agreements worth? Who needs to prove what?
Please spare me the lectures. Yes, we were stupid. And yes, we are kicking ourselves for it. But that’s not something I can change now. We’re just trying to limit the damage.
B
Bauexperte26 Dec 2015 00:10Good evening,
In general, a contract is not required to commission a tradesperson bindingly. If everything goes as planned, that’s great— but in the worst case, things could become complicated, as the burden of proof is on you. Are there any witnesses who can confirm your negotiations with the contractor? Partners or spouses can also serve as witnesses; however, judges will examine this very carefully.
That’s why my recommendation is to communicate calmly and clearly with the tradesperson. So far, you have only made partial payments; the final payment request will come with the delivery of the final invoice. The final invoice must clearly state what the partial payments were for. Relevant acceptance certificates for you, as well as, for example, user manuals, must be attached. Alternatively, a date should be specified when you will receive these certificates/manuals.
Best regards, Bauexperte
bibliophilia schrieb:These are questions you need to discuss with a lawyer; we cannot provide legal advice here.
[...]
- What would the situation be like if it goes to court? How much weight do verbal agreements have? Who has to prove what?
In general, a contract is not required to commission a tradesperson bindingly. If everything goes as planned, that’s great— but in the worst case, things could become complicated, as the burden of proof is on you. Are there any witnesses who can confirm your negotiations with the contractor? Partners or spouses can also serve as witnesses; however, judges will examine this very carefully.
That’s why my recommendation is to communicate calmly and clearly with the tradesperson. So far, you have only made partial payments; the final payment request will come with the delivery of the final invoice. The final invoice must clearly state what the partial payments were for. Relevant acceptance certificates for you, as well as, for example, user manuals, must be attached. Alternatively, a date should be specified when you will receive these certificates/manuals.
Best regards, Bauexperte
H
HilfeHilfe26 Dec 2015 06:12tomtom79 schrieb:
Just a quick note: there is no net price for you as a private individual! Well, my developer also always quoted extra costs as net prices. Seems to be common practice.
My experience has shown me: never hire friends or acquaintances; in my experience, you usually pay more for lower quality work.
Tell me the basic details of the installation. I can then send you my estimate from the expensive southern region, which you’re welcome to show him.
If there are still major discrepancies, I would escalate the issue.
Best regards,
Manuel
Tell me the basic details of the installation. I can then send you my estimate from the expensive southern region, which you’re welcome to show him.
If there are still major discrepancies, I would escalate the issue.
Best regards,
Manuel
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