Hello, I’m new here and wanted to ask for your opinions or personal experiences. We currently live in a beautiful old apartment in a sadly dilapidated manor house in the middle of nowhere. Now the house is being sold, and we will probably have to move out by early to mid-2020 due to partial demolition and extensive renovation. Unfortunately, we don’t know the exact timing yet. We only found out the day before yesterday and now feel a bit unsettled. We have been keeping an eye on the real estate market from time to time but never really felt pressured to find something.
I definitely don’t want to rent again, and neither does my husband. He’s a passionate gardener with an impressive plant collection, and moving is already tough enough. Anyway, long story short: we now want to buy something of our own (unfortunately under time pressure). It’s a terrible time since there are very few houses or plots available in the area, and those that are can be really overpriced.
I think building a house is probably not feasible either time-wise or financially (because of a larger plot, a house of about 110 m2 to 150 m2 (1,180 to 1,615 sq ft) would be plenty).
There is an old farmhouse here that we want to take a look at. The barns and garages are in good condition, but the house itself urgently needs renovation—bathrooms, walls, and floors all require work, and the heating is just a stove. The building structure seems quite solid.
That means a completely new heating system would have to be installed, the walls redone, and flooring laid everywhere. I don’t know anything about the insulation yet.
What do you think would be a rough estimate just for the heating system? I imagine many walls would have to be opened up and pipes or wiring installed.
We’re both fairly handy and willing to do the work ourselves. My husband works as a landscaper and can handle bricklaying, plastering, and similar tasks. Is a budget of 50,000 to 60,000 euros (about 54,000 to 64,500 USD) realistic, or am I dreaming?
Oh, a few more details: about 130 m2 (1,400 sq ft) of living space and 2 bathrooms with hot water boilers (which would need urgent renovation as well!).
Thanks in advance, and feel free to be brutally honest.
I definitely don’t want to rent again, and neither does my husband. He’s a passionate gardener with an impressive plant collection, and moving is already tough enough. Anyway, long story short: we now want to buy something of our own (unfortunately under time pressure). It’s a terrible time since there are very few houses or plots available in the area, and those that are can be really overpriced.
I think building a house is probably not feasible either time-wise or financially (because of a larger plot, a house of about 110 m2 to 150 m2 (1,180 to 1,615 sq ft) would be plenty).
There is an old farmhouse here that we want to take a look at. The barns and garages are in good condition, but the house itself urgently needs renovation—bathrooms, walls, and floors all require work, and the heating is just a stove. The building structure seems quite solid.
That means a completely new heating system would have to be installed, the walls redone, and flooring laid everywhere. I don’t know anything about the insulation yet.
What do you think would be a rough estimate just for the heating system? I imagine many walls would have to be opened up and pipes or wiring installed.
We’re both fairly handy and willing to do the work ourselves. My husband works as a landscaper and can handle bricklaying, plastering, and similar tasks. Is a budget of 50,000 to 60,000 euros (about 54,000 to 64,500 USD) realistic, or am I dreaming?
Oh, a few more details: about 130 m2 (1,400 sq ft) of living space and 2 bathrooms with hot water boilers (which would need urgent renovation as well!).
Thanks in advance, and feel free to be brutally honest.
A full renovation at 500€/m² (about $540/m²) is not feasible, especially if you plan to do it yourself within a year. However, if many of you have skilled tradespeople among your friends, you can start by realistically calculating what you can manage on your own, which external services you will definitely need to hire, and how long that will take.
I would venture to guess that, as a tenured teacher, you can finance a renovation plus purchase price exceeding 50,000-60,000 euros (about $54,000-$65,000).
I would venture to guess that, as a tenured teacher, you can finance a renovation plus purchase price exceeding 50,000-60,000 euros (about $54,000-$65,000).
What hasn’t been mentioned yet:
50,000 to 60,000, that alone almost covers the heating system including installation and disposal of the old one—unless you go for a very basic setup and do a lot of it yourself during an energy renovation (EL).
Windows and the front door will likely need to be replaced as well, which adds another 20,000 euros (about 21,500 USD).
Without knowing the house, in 90% of cases the roof and roof insulation need to be redone, which is another 20,000 to 50,000 euros (about 21,500 to 54,000 USD).
None of this even makes the house livable yet, the first 100,000 euros (about 108,000 USD) are already spent, and you can hardly do any energy renovation (EL) at this stage.
The entire interior fit-out—kitchen, bathrooms, walls, floors—can then be managed with your own labor for 50,000 to 60,000 euros (about 54,000 to 65,000 USD).
Additionally: friends of my parents renovated a farmhouse in an energy renovation program (with job leave for over two years) about 15 years ago. It was around 400 square meters (around 4,300 square feet). Anyway, whenever someone in the family got the idea of buying and renovating an old house, these acquaintances were mentioned: “They thought everything would cost 100,000 euros (about 108,000 USD) back then, but in the end it cost over half a million,” and that was 15 years ago…
50,000 to 60,000, that alone almost covers the heating system including installation and disposal of the old one—unless you go for a very basic setup and do a lot of it yourself during an energy renovation (EL).
Windows and the front door will likely need to be replaced as well, which adds another 20,000 euros (about 21,500 USD).
Without knowing the house, in 90% of cases the roof and roof insulation need to be redone, which is another 20,000 to 50,000 euros (about 21,500 to 54,000 USD).
None of this even makes the house livable yet, the first 100,000 euros (about 108,000 USD) are already spent, and you can hardly do any energy renovation (EL) at this stage.
The entire interior fit-out—kitchen, bathrooms, walls, floors—can then be managed with your own labor for 50,000 to 60,000 euros (about 54,000 to 65,000 USD).
Additionally: friends of my parents renovated a farmhouse in an energy renovation program (with job leave for over two years) about 15 years ago. It was around 400 square meters (around 4,300 square feet). Anyway, whenever someone in the family got the idea of buying and renovating an old house, these acquaintances were mentioned: “They thought everything would cost 100,000 euros (about 108,000 USD) back then, but in the end it cost over half a million,” and that was 15 years ago…
Tassimat schrieb:
I don’t think a full renovation for 500€/m² is achievable, especially as DIY within one year.Well, I’m just going to claim that it is possible.
A key factor: living close to the construction site and having no children. With not too much work to earn a living (max 40 hours per week + short commute) and taking your annual vacation on the construction site, it can be done… if you know what you’re doing.
Heating and plumbing are actually always the most critical items in projects like this, because even experienced DIYers rarely have the experience and confidence to plan, lay out, and properly pressure-test the pipes and the system. We paid just under €20,000 for heating + piping + radiators (underfloor heating in kitchen and bathroom + 12 radiators in the house) + water lines from the main connection. No DIY here, everything was done by the plumber.
Our place is about 140m² (1,507 sq ft), and for renewing plaster, new flooring throughout, 80m² (860 sq ft) of new dry screed, ceiling insulation in the basement (60m² / 645 sq ft), bathroom tiles, fixtures and fittings, kitchen electrical appliances and new countertops, paint, and completely new electrical system including the fuse box, we paid about €20,000 doing all this ourselves (except the electrical connection and final approval of the fuse box by an electrician).
New windows were installed with no DIY (55m² / 592 sq ft of window area, triple-glazed, laminated, plastic frames) for 14,000€.
We spent about six months working nearly every weekend plus 3 weeks of vacation, always with two people (my father and me). Then we moved in and spent about a year finishing up the remaining tasks, like building a new wooden terrace (€1,200), kitchen skirting boards and trims, excavating and waterproofing the basement from the outside (€3,000 including earthworks by a landscaping contractor), plus lots of gardening and small jobs. But during this period, we only worked occasionally whenever time allowed.
Renovating old houses is not difficult (from a craftsmanship standpoint). Plastering walls, laying dry screed, running electrical cables, installing roof insulation—these are all just manual work, nothing complicated! You just need to understand what you’re doing and how each material behaves or adheres on different surfaces. But there is plenty of information available online for everything.
W
wurmwichtel10 Apr 2019 10:59Tigerlili schrieb:
...There would now be an old farmhouse here, which we also want to take a look at. The barns and garages are in good condition, but the house itself needs major renovation—bathrooms, walls, and floors would all have to be redone, and there is only a stove heating system. The building structure seems to be quite solid.
That means a completely new heating system would need to be installed, then the walls redone and floors laid everywhere. I’m not sure about the insulation yet... If you are ready to live on a construction site for the next three to four years: go for it!
The heating system doesn’t necessarily have to be replaced immediately—people nowadays are just too lazy to take care of stoves. Carrying coal, disposing of ashes, heating the place up in the morning, and so on.
The comfort of modern heating systems is addictive!
I might upset some people here, but I’m absolutely against messing with insulation in an old house, especially if it was built before World War I. Poor or missing planning and the use of unsuitable materials sooner or later lead to the decay of the building. Done properly, however, it also costs a lot of money.
Farilo schrieb:
...But if the floor needs to be redone anyway, you might as well install underfloor heating. It doesn’t really cost much more if the floor is already opened up... See above.
If the house was inexpensive, I would simply compare how the financial effort relates to the expected higher heating costs without “energy retrofitting.”
Recently, someone here was raving about their KfW40 house.
What they spent extra for that (compared to energy-saving regulation requirements) would have heated my place for over 30 years.
What I want to express is that insulating just for the sake of insulating is definitely not effective and should be carefully considered if it’s not absolutely necessary.
B
Buchweizen10 Apr 2019 17:05wurmwichtel schrieb:
The heating system doesn’t necessarily need to be replaced immediately – these days people are simply too lazy to take care of stoves. Carrying coal, disposing of ashes, warming up the house in the morning, and so on. Honestly: Would you be willing to do that?
My parents’ house is 200 years old, and a (gas) heating system was only installed sometime in the mid-20th century – and has been replaced several times since.
However, nothing was botched because of that, although the insulation is still at least partially quite questionable compared to today’s standards and expectations.
Lumpi_LE schrieb:
What hasn’t been mentioned yet:
50,000–60,000, that alone will almost cover the heating system including installation and disposal of the old one—unless you go for some minimal setup and mostly electric heating.
Windows and the front door will surely need to be replaced too, which costs another 20,000.
Without knowing the house, I can say that in 90% of cases the roof and roof insulation need to be renewed, which adds another 20,000–50,000.
That’s before making the house livable—the first 100,000 already gone, and electric heating is hardly an option here. Hi Lumpi,
no matter what you ever have to buy somewhere, sometime—please contact me. I’ll sell it to you!
50k for a heating system...
20k for windows and the front door...
Of course you can spend that much. It’s possible to afford it all.
But I think Lumpi might have exaggerated a bit.
Just google what a Vaillant or Buderus heating system costs. Google what windows and interior doors cost.
Even exterior doors can be found quite affordably.
I’m not trying to criticize you here... I just know from my own renovation last year what the costs for windows, doors, heating, electrical work, floors, and walls can be—and it doesn’t have to be that expensive.
You might be right though that there are people who spend 50–60k on a heating system, 15k on an entrance door, 3k per window, 60k on a garage, 20k on a carport, 70k on a kitchen, and a modest 200k on the garden.
But none of that is necessary (at least that’s what I think!).
If the original poster wants only the best and fastest, then your numbers are okay.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a Buderus or Vaillant (or similar). These are very good and proven technologies.
There are also very good “affordable” windows available. And since the house is older, installing them isn’t a big issue, because you don’t need to worry about any external insulation systems (ETICS / EPS insulation) or similar.
When you watch two windows being installed in an older building, you can manage the third yourself! The same goes for interior doors.
But well... everyone to their own.
Lumpi, my offer still stands! Contact me if you’re going shopping!
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