Dear Homebuilding Community,
I have already read some exciting discussions here. However, I can’t help but share our building project with you to get your opinions. Perhaps our situation might also help other readers.
We already have a beautiful plot of land in southern Schleswig-Holstein (near Hamburg), where we want to build a spacious single-family home for a family of four, possibly five, with the option for Grandma to move in later. And by spacious, I really mean spacious: We approached the architect with a concept of about 300 m² (3,229 sq ft) of living space plus a basement and brought our dream home to paper. Including terraces, the total area is now an impressive 360 m² (3,875 sq ft). It’s large, and we know that. We’re currently in the planning approval phase.
First, some details about the house and property:
- 2,700 m² (29,063 sq ft) plot
- 360 m² (3,875 sq ft) living space plus basement
- Ground source heat pump with probes
- Photovoltaic system ~10 kWp
- Battery storage
- Central ventilation system
- Underfloor heating
- KNX smart home system for lighting, heating, ventilation, security
- Detached double garage
- Sauna house with whirlpool in the garden
- Meets KfW55 energy standard
- Watertight concrete shell (“white bathtub”)
- Built-in wardrobes
Everything falls into the category of high-end equipment.
Now our dilemma:
We started with a planning budget for cost groups 300 + 400 (shell + interior work and technical equipment) of €1.25 million (approximately $1.35 million; €3,500/m² or about $325/sq ft). This was the budget we planned with. Now the architect suddenly says the planned costs have almost doubled to about €2.1 million (approximately $2.27 million). The reason given: the square meters increased (the architect included some rooms in the basement as living space), and our wishes have continuously evolved along the way (dormers, double garage, outdoor kitchen, casemates, etc.). We’ve received a cost breakdown, but I have no way to evaluate whether the painter’s costs overall, or the price for a window or door, are reasonable.
Well – that’s clearly way over our budget, and we’re now cutting costs significantly. We’ve already removed the casemates, blinds, many built-in wardrobes, and still aren’t close to the budget we originally set. Apparently, we’ll have to downgrade from “high-end” to “standard” finishes and possibly shrink some rooms considerably.
The electrical planning has been the biggest surprise: After an initial quotation with very crazy prices, I now have a new “basis for discussion” on electrical costs. For electrical work (materials + installation), €220,000 (around $238,000) has been estimated so far—still excluding the photovoltaic system, battery storage, server, blind motors, KNX programming! Attached is a small excerpt from the planned costs. I can’t imagine these costs being realistic.
I know the square meters are extreme, and large areas like the entrance hall are not efficiently used. However, we started from the assumption that with a budget of about €1.5 million (planning + construction) we could build the absolute dream house.
Are we that far off? Is it not possible to realize such a project with this budget?
Thank you very much for your opinions and assessments! I’m also curious about your suggestions on what you would do or where you would cut costs.
Best regards!
I have already read some exciting discussions here. However, I can’t help but share our building project with you to get your opinions. Perhaps our situation might also help other readers.
We already have a beautiful plot of land in southern Schleswig-Holstein (near Hamburg), where we want to build a spacious single-family home for a family of four, possibly five, with the option for Grandma to move in later. And by spacious, I really mean spacious: We approached the architect with a concept of about 300 m² (3,229 sq ft) of living space plus a basement and brought our dream home to paper. Including terraces, the total area is now an impressive 360 m² (3,875 sq ft). It’s large, and we know that. We’re currently in the planning approval phase.
First, some details about the house and property:
- 2,700 m² (29,063 sq ft) plot
- 360 m² (3,875 sq ft) living space plus basement
- Ground source heat pump with probes
- Photovoltaic system ~10 kWp
- Battery storage
- Central ventilation system
- Underfloor heating
- KNX smart home system for lighting, heating, ventilation, security
- Detached double garage
- Sauna house with whirlpool in the garden
- Meets KfW55 energy standard
- Watertight concrete shell (“white bathtub”)
- Built-in wardrobes
Everything falls into the category of high-end equipment.
Now our dilemma:
We started with a planning budget for cost groups 300 + 400 (shell + interior work and technical equipment) of €1.25 million (approximately $1.35 million; €3,500/m² or about $325/sq ft). This was the budget we planned with. Now the architect suddenly says the planned costs have almost doubled to about €2.1 million (approximately $2.27 million). The reason given: the square meters increased (the architect included some rooms in the basement as living space), and our wishes have continuously evolved along the way (dormers, double garage, outdoor kitchen, casemates, etc.). We’ve received a cost breakdown, but I have no way to evaluate whether the painter’s costs overall, or the price for a window or door, are reasonable.
Well – that’s clearly way over our budget, and we’re now cutting costs significantly. We’ve already removed the casemates, blinds, many built-in wardrobes, and still aren’t close to the budget we originally set. Apparently, we’ll have to downgrade from “high-end” to “standard” finishes and possibly shrink some rooms considerably.
The electrical planning has been the biggest surprise: After an initial quotation with very crazy prices, I now have a new “basis for discussion” on electrical costs. For electrical work (materials + installation), €220,000 (around $238,000) has been estimated so far—still excluding the photovoltaic system, battery storage, server, blind motors, KNX programming! Attached is a small excerpt from the planned costs. I can’t imagine these costs being realistic.
I know the square meters are extreme, and large areas like the entrance hall are not efficiently used. However, we started from the assumption that with a budget of about €1.5 million (planning + construction) we could build the absolute dream house.
Are we that far off? Is it not possible to realize such a project with this budget?
Thank you very much for your opinions and assessments! I’m also curious about your suggestions on what you would do or where you would cut costs.
Best regards!
Why doesn’t the original poster write something?!
The basement alone is almost as significant in size as the living area itself.
By the way, I notice a few “small issues” in the design: bathroom located above the living room extension, chimney for the fireplace placed at the eaves instead of the ridge, and the living room obstructing an appealing view of the garden. You basically feel shut off on the breakfast terrace. The path to the outdoor kitchen is very long and goes right through the living room, which you generally want to avoid. Ideally, the terrace should be close to the fridge and kitchen, with the dining room at most in between if necessary.
Possible improvements: guest bathroom on the ground floor can also serve as a family restroom, shorten the hall, use a straight or gently double-turned staircase… place the living room where the staircase currently is. Upstairs, the layout would shift accordingly. The advantage: staircase and walkway become more central, terrace is accessible from the dining area, and the garden extension doesn’t block the line of sight.
However, this only saves roughly 150 m² (1,615 sq ft), bringing the costs to around 1.8 million.
Trockentest schrieb:
360 m² (3,875 sq ft) living space + basement
The basement alone is almost as significant in size as the living area itself.
By the way, I notice a few “small issues” in the design: bathroom located above the living room extension, chimney for the fireplace placed at the eaves instead of the ridge, and the living room obstructing an appealing view of the garden. You basically feel shut off on the breakfast terrace. The path to the outdoor kitchen is very long and goes right through the living room, which you generally want to avoid. Ideally, the terrace should be close to the fridge and kitchen, with the dining room at most in between if necessary.
Possible improvements: guest bathroom on the ground floor can also serve as a family restroom, shorten the hall, use a straight or gently double-turned staircase… place the living room where the staircase currently is. Upstairs, the layout would shift accordingly. The advantage: staircase and walkway become more central, terrace is accessible from the dining area, and the garden extension doesn’t block the line of sight.
However, this only saves roughly 150 m² (1,615 sq ft), bringing the costs to around 1.8 million.
T
Trockentest30 Aug 2022 23:40Good evening everyone,
Wow – I didn’t expect so many replies within 24 hours. That’s really great, and thank you all very much for your answers and opinions!
It’s tough to read that almost everyone recommends scrapping the plan and starting over from scratch. But the more I think about it and read your comments, the more I lean toward this step. That said, it’s frustrating because we have already invested so much time and energy here. And our architect never raised any concerns about the costs.
That’s the part I just don’t understand.
So far, we are planning through the architect. He is also currently looking for a GC as Plan B. Yes – if I look at raw material costs, I also only get to about €40 for many components. That’s why I’m puzzled about the high costs – does an electrician really need an hour to install one socket? And €4 per meter of electrical cable also seems outrageously high to me. But apparently, these costs are possible if I understand everyone correctly?
I never said 250 sockets would be controlled by KNX. There will be a few KNX switches here and there, yes, but definitely not all 250 sockets/switches. He said that the €110 was an average price for a mix of standard sockets/switches and KNX sockets/switches. The electrical planner also included 54 smoke detectors in his initial cost estimate. I don’t even have that many rooms. I simply don’t understand what the electrical planner has done so far. That’s why…
Yes – the basement is too large, I agree with that. What do you mean exactly by the terrace and kitchen?
I also think we will start again with a plan for about 240m² (2,583 sq ft). It’s true – the space must be filled with life, and some rooms will simply have to be cut.
Yes – the 4m² bathroom was also something we noticed as strange. We need to shift the proportions.
Thanks for your input. This price per square meter is exactly why I don’t understand it. The architect started with €3,500/m² (33 per sq ft) for the house including the basement and has not updated the costs since. Now we’re facing a seriously overrun budget. We don’t even want to make the basement so livable, and the terraces are huge, which shouldn’t heavily affect costs. So your estimate of €1.5 to €1.7 million has so far been my hope. But other opinions here clearly state that I cannot achieve that cost framework.
Grandma would stay in the ground floor guest room. We don’t want the house to be split into two separate living units – whoever lives there should be fully integrated.
I’ll take your comments about the stairs as something to consider.
Very good suggestions, which I will definitely take into account in a new plan. Thank you!
I will read through the thread. It sounds good at first glance, and I will try to find out who he built with. It’s also in the Hamburg area.
… that was exactly my reaction too. I actually suspected programmable screen wallpapers or something like that. 😀
I agree with you. The entrance area is definitely too large. A large open space with a nice lighting scene would be nice, but it is not feasible cost-wise or practically.
Thanks for your reply. From what I read, it turned out well for you too to start completely over from zero?
Good suggestions, thank you! I will consider these carefully and include them in a new plan.
Wow – I didn’t expect so many replies within 24 hours. That’s really great, and thank you all very much for your answers and opinions!
It’s tough to read that almost everyone recommends scrapping the plan and starting over from scratch. But the more I think about it and read your comments, the more I lean toward this step. That said, it’s frustrating because we have already invested so much time and energy here. And our architect never raised any concerns about the costs.
That’s the part I just don’t understand.
Obermuh schrieb:
How will the building be carried out? Self-managed (through the architect) or with a general contractor (GC)?
I find the electrical costs ambitious… for an extra (Gira) socket, I was still paying €25 or €35 if controllable via KNX (without actuator) back in 2020. Yes, everything is more expensive now, but €110 per socket is really steep.
So far, we are planning through the architect. He is also currently looking for a GC as Plan B. Yes – if I look at raw material costs, I also only get to about €40 for many components. That’s why I’m puzzled about the high costs – does an electrician really need an hour to install one socket? And €4 per meter of electrical cable also seems outrageously high to me. But apparently, these costs are possible if I understand everyone correctly?
k-man2021 schrieb:
Regarding the electrical work… is there even a thoughtful plan? If I interpret your excerpt correctly, you want to control 250 sockets with KNX… if the rest of the plan looks like that, then I don’t think you should be surprised by the cost… it can be done more economically.
I never said 250 sockets would be controlled by KNX. There will be a few KNX switches here and there, yes, but definitely not all 250 sockets/switches. He said that the €110 was an average price for a mix of standard sockets/switches and KNX sockets/switches. The electrical planner also included 54 smoke detectors in his initial cost estimate. I don’t even have that many rooms. I simply don’t understand what the electrical planner has done so far. That’s why…
K a t j a schrieb:
…that the basement resembles an underground city and is totally oversized and pointless. (What can you really store in 20m² (215 sq ft) of cellar, just to name one example?)
For €1.5 million, you can build a nice house. In a revised plan, I would also reconsider the orientation of the main terrace and the connection to the kitchen. It also raises the question whether I would keep the architect who caused such a miscalculation.
Yes – the basement is too large, I agree with that. What do you mean exactly by the terrace and kitchen?
haydee schrieb:
Plan new and smaller. Simply cutting or shortening parts here and there won’t work. The house is already very large. I think cutting about 100m² (1,076 sq ft) and opting for luxury finishes will get you closer to your budget and still give you your dream home.
To exaggerate: you could hold ball games in your entrance hall and install a bowling alley in the dressing room. Still comfortable?
There are also houses around 200m² (2,153 sq ft) with entrance halls that create a stunning wow effect.
You have to fill 350m² (3,767 sq ft) with life, though.
Go through every room again. Wine cellar or wine collector? Do you really need a cellar, or would a wine fridge suffice?
Do you really need so many hobby rooms? We once planned a hobby room for each person, but didn’t implement any and haven’t missed them.
You can avoid each other all day long.
If I think of @rick2018’s project, I fear €2 million will already be tight.
I also think we will start again with a plan for about 240m² (2,583 sq ft). It’s true – the space must be filled with life, and some rooms will simply have to be cut.
SoL schrieb:
If I were you with the new house, I would have the room sizes better proportioned...
Huge open space, huge hallway but then a 4m² (43 sq ft) guest bathroom is strange.
Yes – the 4m² bathroom was also something we noticed as strange. We need to shift the proportions.
andimann schrieb:
Morning,
That’s quite a massive house… whether it’s still appropriate in today’s times is up to each individual.
Regarding costs: €5,800 per m² (54 per sq ft) seems very expensive, even with a basement and high-end finishes. There are also huge terraces included, which regardless of flooring shouldn’t cost more than about €500/m² (46 per sq ft). That means the actual house is calculated at over €6,000/m² (56 per sq ft). However, the €1.25 million will likely be tight – I’d rather guess €1.5 to €1.7 million.
Regarding the layout:
- Where is the option for grandma? I don’t see any real way to separate the guest area properly. Apart from that, with your budget, I would rather plan an 80m² (860 sq ft) bungalow in the garden for her.…
- The staircase is a total no-go; its position destroys the symmetry and sightlines in your entrance hall. It’s ruining your Feng Shui… It absolutely needs to connect to walls on both sides; otherwise, it looks cramped.
Thanks for your input. This price per square meter is exactly why I don’t understand it. The architect started with €3,500/m² (33 per sq ft) for the house including the basement and has not updated the costs since. Now we’re facing a seriously overrun budget. We don’t even want to make the basement so livable, and the terraces are huge, which shouldn’t heavily affect costs. So your estimate of €1.5 to €1.7 million has so far been my hope. But other opinions here clearly state that I cannot achieve that cost framework.
Grandma would stay in the ground floor guest room. We don’t want the house to be split into two separate living units – whoever lives there should be fully integrated.
I’ll take your comments about the stairs as something to consider.
ypg schrieb:
I also looked for grandma’s option but only found many oversized placeholder rooms in the basement. Or is the bedroom with bathroom for grandma on the left side of the plan?
I would design the center of the house, the foyer, to feel more homely. After all, you want to live in the rooms, not take athletic routes every day.
Halve the dressing room on the upper floor and reconsider dormers including children's attic rooms.
If there will be living space in the basement anyway, consider a nice light well on the side to make good use of the basement space. That could save 30-40m² (323-430 sq ft) per floor.
Even with the suggested cuts, it will definitely still be an impressive house.
Very good suggestions, which I will definitely take into account in a new plan. Thank you!
ypg schrieb:
Take a look at this house… the price is obviously outdated and the floor area as well… but still quite impressive.
https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/feedback-zu-unserer-grundrissidee-kleines-baufenster.11004/page-20#post-592720
I will read through the thread. It sounds good at first glance, and I will try to find out who he built with. It’s also in the Hamburg area.
andimann schrieb:
Wow,
Really? You have more experience in this league, so I take your assessment seriously. But €8,000–8,500 per m² (74-79 per sq ft)? Then the walls must be covered in gold leaf!!
Best regards,
Andreas
… that was exactly my reaction too. I actually suspected programmable screen wallpapers or something like that. 😀
ypg schrieb:
Hmm… if the entrance hall is a hall, not just a foyer, personally I don’t find that beautiful. It is bigger than a standard living room in a luxury apartment. It has to be constantly used to go upstairs or to the bathroom. However, I do find the open space above impressive – a really great chandelier hanging there would be quite a statement. But even if you can afford it, you have to consider whether you want to distance yourself that far from an average level of comfort or if you want to stop pushing limits in such a "big thing".
Everything eventually becomes saturated and over the top: what use is a bouillabaisse if it has so much high-quality fish that there’s no liquid left in the soup?
I’m not trying to preach, but since the house as proposed isn’t affordable or buildable anyway, maybe consider that even a half-size hall, i.e., a generous foyer, could be more valuable for a house than a castle-like feature.
I would rather stick with built-in furniture to furnish the house or an expensive staircase and save on overly complicated size.
I agree with you. The entrance area is definitely too large. A large open space with a nice lighting scene would be nice, but it is not feasible cost-wise or practically.
Costruttrice schrieb:
Unfortunately, I also think that the new price is more realistic than your stated budget. And I’m afraid that the new price is not the final price for this project.
It’s really frustrating since you had clearly defined your expectations. Our architect’s costs also rose with each appointment. Once the pain threshold was reached, we had to pull the plug. Cutting back on built-ins or pushing exterior walls inward and shrinking rooms doesn’t help and ruins the whole design. Better to start fresh.
Thanks for your reply. From what I read, it turned out well for you too to start completely over from zero?
ypg schrieb:
Why doesn’t the OP say something?!
The basement area is almost as large as the living area itself.
By the way, I notice "small details" in the draft: bathroom above the living room extension, chimney for the fireplace on the eaves instead of the ridge, which unpleasantly blocks the garden view. You’re basically closed off from the breakfast terrace.
The path to the outdoor kitchen is very long and passes through the living room, which you want to avoid. Ideally, the terrace should be near the refrigerator and kitchen, with the dining room in between if necessary.
Possible direction: turn the guest bathroom on the ground floor into a family bathroom, shorten the hall, opt for a straight or gracefully double-spiral staircase… put the staircase where the living room is now. Upstairs, shift accordingly. Advantages: staircase/traffic flow more visible, terrace accessible from the dining area, no visual axis blocked by the garden addition.
Still, you save only about 150m² (1,615 sq ft), which would bring you to around €1.8 million.
Good suggestions, thank you! I will consider these carefully and include them in a new plan.
T
Trockentest30 Aug 2022 23:45So, to summarize once again:
Thank you for all your feedback!
It clearly only makes sense to start from zero. I will sketch a rough floor plan for 220-240 m² (2,370-2,583 sq ft) incorporating some of your suggestions and then take it to a new architect/general contractor. And throughout the process, I will pay much closer attention to the budget. The previous planning was basically wasted money. As frustrating as that is.
Thank you for all your feedback!
It clearly only makes sense to start from zero. I will sketch a rough floor plan for 220-240 m² (2,370-2,583 sq ft) incorporating some of your suggestions and then take it to a new architect/general contractor. And throughout the process, I will pay much closer attention to the budget. The previous planning was basically wasted money. As frustrating as that is.
What Essentially Makes House Construction Expensive (Excluding Technical Aspects)
Basements, living area, complex structural engineering, high-quality bathroom fittings (tiles), large window areas, elaborate facades (including corners and edges), intricate roofs, dormers! Well, then also premium flooring and gold-plated faucets, marble walls…
You need about 3m² (32ft²) for storage, 6m² (65ft²) for the utility room, approximately 10m² (108ft²) for the freezer room (all somewhat larger than standard). A house doesn’t become more valuable just because the storage cellar grows proportionally with the house. One hobby room is enough for a family. You might also consider allocating space for a fitness area or sauna near the bathroom, at least the room for it… yet the basement could still be reduced by half. Office space in the basement? Or maybe no basement at all, and instead place the secondary rooms in an extension. That already saves a level, and ground-level secondary rooms also have value. Hobby and office spaces could also go into the attic 😉
Basements, living area, complex structural engineering, high-quality bathroom fittings (tiles), large window areas, elaborate facades (including corners and edges), intricate roofs, dormers! Well, then also premium flooring and gold-plated faucets, marble walls…
You need about 3m² (32ft²) for storage, 6m² (65ft²) for the utility room, approximately 10m² (108ft²) for the freezer room (all somewhat larger than standard). A house doesn’t become more valuable just because the storage cellar grows proportionally with the house. One hobby room is enough for a family. You might also consider allocating space for a fitness area or sauna near the bathroom, at least the room for it… yet the basement could still be reduced by half. Office space in the basement? Or maybe no basement at all, and instead place the secondary rooms in an extension. That already saves a level, and ground-level secondary rooms also have value. Hobby and office spaces could also go into the attic 😉
Trockentest schrieb:
Yes – the basement is too large. I agree with that. What do you mean about the terrace and the kitchen?Just a quick explanation... consider the path from the kitchen to the terrace, passing the dining table, and then eventually through the living room to access the terrace. Think about this idea... cooking facing the terrace is especially practical in summer, also when you have children who want to quickly grab something to eat or drink coming in from the garden, and so on.P
Pinkiponk31 Aug 2022 09:45Trockentest schrieb:
That’s why I’m surprised the costs are so high – does an electrician really need an hour to install a single socket? Maybe the electrician charges that much, regardless of the actual effort and material costs, because you’re building such a large house? This is just a guess, but from what I knew from my father, who ran a construction business (not electrical), he used to charge "almost castle owners" more money, no matter the effort involved, compared to a single elderly lady living alone.