Hello everyone,
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
If I may summarize briefly:
It’s quite clear that you have no real knowledge of house construction, you’re dissatisfied with all the providers so far, advice from the forum is unwelcome unless it matches your opinion, and you dismiss experienced experts in the forum as confused or ignorant.
Additionally: The tradespeople and therefore the house building market still operate as a seller’s market. Nobody is catering to you because of your money. On the contrary, you should be grateful if you even get someone willing to take your payment.
So: Why should anyone help you?
Of all the nonsense I’ve read from you, I find this statement particularly fitting to describe what I consider your completely wrong fundamental attitude:
My recommendation is to continue renting and cancel your plans to build a house, or perhaps get a serious reality check.
It’s quite clear that you have no real knowledge of house construction, you’re dissatisfied with all the providers so far, advice from the forum is unwelcome unless it matches your opinion, and you dismiss experienced experts in the forum as confused or ignorant.
Additionally: The tradespeople and therefore the house building market still operate as a seller’s market. Nobody is catering to you because of your money. On the contrary, you should be grateful if you even get someone willing to take your payment.
So: Why should anyone help you?
Of all the nonsense I’ve read from you, I find this statement particularly fitting to describe what I consider your completely wrong fundamental attitude:
Questie schrieb:
A house is a product with a provider and a buyer.
My recommendation is to continue renting and cancel your plans to build a house, or perhaps get a serious reality check.
Thank you for your objective contribution.
I understand that we need an architect and possibly a new general contractor if we don’t want to get involved in every detail ourselves. I did take that advice and I’m grateful for it.
Otherwise, tips like “The heating system has to fit us” aren’t very helpful if you don’t explain how to determine that (even when asked specifically). Advice on questions I never asked and without any background knowledge about us, our needs, situation, hobbies, etc., is also not very useful—especially when explained in detail.
Or responding to confusion with just “Yep” instead of providing an explanation (for example about the construction time) doesn’t really help either.
It’s equally unhelpful to call a projector more than $10,000 more expensive (Sony VPL-XW7000ES) bad technology—that actually becomes quite ridiculous.
I also don’t want to have to argue why I don’t just ride a bike when I’m asking a question about a car tire.
Yes, I don’t have much knowledge about building yet (we have a plot of land, that’s all), but the way “advice” is sometimes given here is unpleasant. And I really dislike it when people apparently just want to provoke. Questions I asked in the last conversation were ignored, while statements were taken out of context just to make meaningless comments.
So, what exactly do you expect?
That perfectly illustrates the experience here. It’s a dismissive expression that doesn’t help at all.
I’m here to ask for help. Since help is given here for free, I can’t demand it. But if someone doesn’t want to help, that’s fine. However, I expect at least different behavior from “experts.”
Many thanks to everyone who has genuinely helped me, but this isn’t leading anywhere, and the time I spend justifying myself here would be better invested in educating myself.
I understand that we need an architect and possibly a new general contractor if we don’t want to get involved in every detail ourselves. I did take that advice and I’m grateful for it.
Otherwise, tips like “The heating system has to fit us” aren’t very helpful if you don’t explain how to determine that (even when asked specifically). Advice on questions I never asked and without any background knowledge about us, our needs, situation, hobbies, etc., is also not very useful—especially when explained in detail.
Or responding to confusion with just “Yep” instead of providing an explanation (for example about the construction time) doesn’t really help either.
It’s equally unhelpful to call a projector more than $10,000 more expensive (Sony VPL-XW7000ES) bad technology—that actually becomes quite ridiculous.
I also don’t want to have to argue why I don’t just ride a bike when I’m asking a question about a car tire.
K a t j a schrieb:
You obviously have no idea about building a house,
Yes, I don’t have much knowledge about building yet (we have a plot of land, that’s all), but the way “advice” is sometimes given here is unpleasant. And I really dislike it when people apparently just want to provoke. Questions I asked in the last conversation were ignored, while statements were taken out of context just to make meaningless comments.
So, what exactly do you expect?
I recommend living in a rental and canceling the house build or having a serious reality check.
That perfectly illustrates the experience here. It’s a dismissive expression that doesn’t help at all.
So: Why should anyone help you?
I’m here to ask for help. Since help is given here for free, I can’t demand it. But if someone doesn’t want to help, that’s fine. However, I expect at least different behavior from “experts.”
Many thanks to everyone who has genuinely helped me, but this isn’t leading anywhere, and the time I spend justifying myself here would be better invested in educating myself.
N
nordanney27 Apr 2024 11:03Questie schrieb:
Just as you wouldn’t call a projector that costs over 10k more (Sony VPL-XW7000ES) bad technology Then it’s got to be the swim trunks. At a 6m (20 feet) distance from the projector, you’re already projecting a 5m (16.5 feet) diagonal image on the wall (with the model mentioned). Even a 36sqm (387 sqft) living room isn’t enough for that.
Questie schrieb:
I can only pass the criticism back to the forum.
...
but the way "advice" is sometimes given here is also unpleasant.
...
from "experts" I expect at least a different behavior. If you’re constantly dissatisfied and clash with everyone, the problem might not be the others.
Maybe you should first realize that you’re asking for something. This doesn’t only apply to this forum but especially to the people who are going to build your new home.
Questie schrieb:
So thanks to everyone who really helped me, but this leads nowhere and the time I spend justifying myself here I’d rather invest in educating myself. Maybe that’s your best idea so far. To make it very clear again: in my opinion, the reason many of your questions remain unanswered is that you don’t have a clear plan yet, both literally and figuratively. There isn’t one single right answer to questions like “which heating system?” etc., but almost always: “It depends.”
And to briefly respond to your initial question: The choice between solid (masonry) construction and timber frame is heavily debated without any building method proving to be definitively better. Both have their pros and cons. There should already be enough information available here and online about that.
With an overall budget of 1 million or more, generally you don’t go to a general contractor (GC) or a prefab house manufacturer. Get a qualified architect. The architect will design the house exactly how you want it. And yes, they usually have companies they work with regularly who then submit bids for the work. But you don’t have to choose them if you’re not satisfied.
And yes, two years is not an unusual construction time from planning to moving in. It already starts with finding the right building partner. So good luck, and maybe we can help you better when your questions become a bit more specific.
K a t j a schrieb:
If someone is constantly dissatisfied and keeps clashing with others, it might not always be the fault of those others.Why should I be satisfied when my requests are ignored without valid reasons and against my interests? If there are reasons for that, those can be discussed, but not like this.Maybe you should first realize that you are making a request. This doesn’t only apply to this forum but especially to the people who are supposed to build your new home.Regarding the forum, you are right, I have already commented on that. When it comes to building, I see it differently. I am not asking or begging or settling for what I get. Today, we couldn’t afford a house with our own capital if that were the case. I commission a service from a contractor and pay for it. This is not a favor. Therefore, I am also entitled to have expectations.With an overall budget of 1 million or more, people generally don’t go to a general contractor or a prefab house builder. Get an architect who is worthy of the name. They will design the house exactly how you want it. And yes, usually they have companies they work with regularly, which then submit bids for the work. But you don’t have to accept those bids if they don’t suit you. Also, a construction period of two years from planning to moving in is not unusual. It already starts with finding the right building partner. Good luck, and maybe we can help you better once your questions are a bit more specific.Thank you. That is a (nearly value-free) and objective answer to my question without having to discuss the floor space, the possibility of a basement, or the technology of my projector. Honestly, I didn’t expect that anymore. Thank you!Questie schrieb:
Regarding construction, I see it differently. I do not beg or settle for what I get. With that approach, we wouldn’t be able to afford a house today with our equity. I commission a service from a contractor and pay for it. This is not a favor. Therefore, I am entitled to have expectations.
Well, our experience is that building a house involves more than just demanding and paying. To ensure the process runs smoothly, the client is, in my opinion, an important part of a team where everyone ideally pursues the same goal.
Depending on the market situation, as an architect I would not even make an offer to clients with your attitude, or I would provide such an inflated quote that potential claims or additional stress are already included.
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