Hello everyone,
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
N
nordanney26 Apr 2024 11:53Questie schrieb:
Thanks for the confirmation. I see this mentioned all over forums, but manufacturers of course insist on how great it is. We were even shown with a thermometer that the floor is 24°C (75°F) and the wall is 23°C (73°F) – no problem at all…Great, yes. But please then in a house that reliably achieves well below the KfW 40 standard, not just nicely calculated on paper.Nice area. Then I don’t need to name two small construction companies for you. You are too far away.
You will find the company that suits you. Meanwhile, we also felt completely lost. Actually, quite often until we moved in.
For us, it was a matter of chance to find the right partner.
You will find the company that suits you. Meanwhile, we also felt completely lost. Actually, quite often until we moved in.
For us, it was a matter of chance to find the right partner.
By the way, I also prefer smaller companies. One single contact person from start to finish. No complaints department, no glossy brochures, no show homes. Instead, transparency and flexibility.
During the entire construction and planning phase, we had exactly two contact persons. First, the boss who planned everything himself and supported us from the initial meeting through to handover, and shortly after, the site manager joined the team.
All the tradespeople were local, and we have already rehired or recommended some of them.
During the entire construction and planning phase, we had exactly two contact persons. First, the boss who planned everything himself and supported us from the initial meeting through to handover, and shortly after, the site manager joined the team.
All the tradespeople were local, and we have already rehired or recommended some of them.
nordanney schrieb:
Big mistake! Small does not automatically mean bad or inexperienced. Focus on local and experienced builders = ask for good references. I would always prefer the "small" builder over the inflexible "large" one. OK, let me put it differently: If I’m moving away from a prefab house, I want to build with solid construction. For me, timber frame construction would be more of a compromise.
See previous answers. Move away from prefab houses. But even here, the big companies have problems. See the first answer as well.
Prefabricated parts require – and that’s the only “problem” – good planning. Nothing more, nothing less. Well, that should always be the case – regardless of the construction method. But like I said, the main issue was that we simply didn’t feel comfortable with that option.
No. You first need to know what kind of house you want. Standard or custom. Only after that can you think about other topics like wall structure, general contractor, etc. The wrong approach often leads to a dead end.
[QUOTE]
We already have a rough idea. Especially with prefab houses, everyone is working with existing floor plans and shifting open-plan walls around, using “sun islands” or other features to somehow approximate our plan. I can’t imagine it would have been any different with an architect. In short: they’re out.
Yes. But you pay the architect directly, and he does what you want. The draftsman working for a general contractor/system house supplier is paid by company XYZ and will (almost) exclusively represent their interests (= get everything done as easily as possible and make a lot of money from you).
Who picks the music at the club? You, because you pay the entrance fee, or the club owner who pays the DJ? I’d rather be the club owner = pay my own architect.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, that makes sense. So, now that we have decided against a prefab house, we should look for a truly independent architect...
Not a mistake. But 145 sqm (1,560 sq ft) well planned is better than 170 sqm (1,830 sq ft) with lots of useless hallways, unusable rooms, etc. That may be true. But if 145 sqm (1,560 sq ft) is simply too small, the best planning won’t help me. We don’t have any special frills or extras. The biggest deviation is a bay window facing west and south.
N
nordanney26 Apr 2024 13:58Questie schrieb:
OK, let me put it differently: if I’m moving away from a prefabricated house, I want to build a solid structure. For me, timber frame construction would have been more of a compromise. Okay. But this attitude also stems from a bias against timber frame construction and is not based on facts. Timber framing has several advantages compared to solid construction.
Questie schrieb:
That may be true. But if 145 m² (1560 sq ft) is simply too small, even the best design won’t help me. What exactly do you mean by “too small”? What are your requirements that make 180 m² (1940 sq ft) an absolute must? Don’t just fixate on size – it costs more and doesn’t necessarily mean everything.
Questie schrieb:
OK, let me phrase it differently: If I’m moving away from a prefab house, then I want to build solidly. For me, timber frame construction would have been more of a compromise.
I think you need to clarify even more: What do you mean by prefab house and solid construction?
Solid construction: aerated concrete? Poroton—lots of air with clay around it? Concrete blocks with a lot of expanded polystyrene for thermal insulation?
Prefab house: thin walls with plaster and plaster carrier made of polystyrene?
Or no plastic vapor barrier but a breathable wall assembly?
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