Hi,
I’m still undecided about installing home automation in our planned new build.
My requirements are as follows:
- Control of roller shutters or blinds (possibly window contacts to detect open windows)
- Control of heating / air source heat pump or solar system
- Control of a video intercom system via a tablet
Of course, I have looked into KNX and the material costs alone would be around 6000€ (approximately 6,350 USD). As an alternative, Loxone is mentioned increasingly often, although the proprietary format is a bit off-putting.
My requirements could also be met with a manufacturer-specific system.
Do you have any recommendations for or against home automation (in my case)?
Best regards
Acd85
I’m still undecided about installing home automation in our planned new build.
My requirements are as follows:
- Control of roller shutters or blinds (possibly window contacts to detect open windows)
- Control of heating / air source heat pump or solar system
- Control of a video intercom system via a tablet
Of course, I have looked into KNX and the material costs alone would be around 6000€ (approximately 6,350 USD). As an alternative, Loxone is mentioned increasingly often, although the proprietary format is a bit off-putting.
My requirements could also be met with a manufacturer-specific system.
Do you have any recommendations for or against home automation (in my case)?
Best regards
Acd85
Phew, 6500-10000 euros and then Loxone? That really wouldn’t be worth it to me... For that money, I could get a KNX installation without any servers and maybe just control it locally at first, but in return I’d have a system without limits. As you can see, you can get the Lite version for configuration for 90 euros, and the limitation to 20 devices doesn’t matter much at the start anyway since you won’t have more than that initially...
Mycraft schrieb:
Phew, 6500-10000 euros and then Loxone? That’s really not worth it to me... for that money, I can get a KNX installation without any servers and maybe only control it locally at first, but then I have a system without limits. As you can see, you can get the Lite version for configuration at 90 euros, and the limit of 20 devices doesn’t matter initially since you won’t have more than that in the beginning...I haven’t committed to any system yet, or even decided if I will use one. I also came across an Excel spreadsheet that lets you do initial cost calculations for KNX, and for the devices, it comes to about 6900€ (around 7300 USD). So, it’s about the same cost.
Of course, it doesn’t include expensive switches from Gira or similar brands, but rather MDT ones, which I find visually acceptable and sufficient for my needs.
I see merits in both systems, and if I have to pay 1000€ (around 1100 USD) more for KNX, then the extra cost is worth it to me. But if KNX costs me twice as much, then I’ll choose Loxone, because the benefits of KNX wouldn’t justify such a price difference.
Well, using tables and such won’t work because KNX devices are simply too complex. To implement home automation properly and save costs, you need to move away from conventional electrical systems. However, this is difficult for many, so home automation often ends up being done in a conventional way and usually unnecessarily expensive.
Hi,
now I’m really curious:
Is it really possible to save money with home automation in a typical single-family house? To be honest, I find the entire purpose of a KNX or any other bus system for home use completely unclear.
I do understand the general idea behind it, don’t worry. At work, my systems easily have 3,000 motors including frequency inverters, plus about the same number of sensors. Without Profibus/IO modules and so on, nothing would work anymore. The main potential for savings is in the otherwise unmanageable hard wiring for thousands of motors and sensors.
Instead of running hundreds of meters of cable for each motor and photoelectric sensor, it’s much cheaper to buy a truckload of Profibus modules and lay a few main power lines across the plant.
But where on earth is the benefit at home? For the prices I have seen for individual actuators so far, I could just put every socket, every light switch, every lamp in the technical room and wire them together there in the control cabinet, rearranging as I please. For whatever reason... I have never felt the need to regularly change switch assignments in any apartment.
If you really do it cleanly, you’d run a single power line through the house plus the bus conductor. That won’t work because of circuit breakers and so on. So it mostly stays the same as before: one circuit per room. That doesn’t save a single meter of cable. And on top of that, you still need the expensive actuators.
So please enlighten an ignorant person: what is the advantage of connecting my lights or sockets to a KNX? I can accept a few special cases like roller shutters, outdoor lighting at the main door, etc., but I’m not going to spend €10,000 (around $11,000) just for that.
I’m definitely a tinkerer at heart, but so far, this hasn’t sparked my curiosity...
Best regards,
Andreas
now I’m really curious:
to use home automation properly and save money, you have to move away from conventional electrical wiring,
Is it really possible to save money with home automation in a typical single-family house? To be honest, I find the entire purpose of a KNX or any other bus system for home use completely unclear.
I do understand the general idea behind it, don’t worry. At work, my systems easily have 3,000 motors including frequency inverters, plus about the same number of sensors. Without Profibus/IO modules and so on, nothing would work anymore. The main potential for savings is in the otherwise unmanageable hard wiring for thousands of motors and sensors.
Instead of running hundreds of meters of cable for each motor and photoelectric sensor, it’s much cheaper to buy a truckload of Profibus modules and lay a few main power lines across the plant.
But where on earth is the benefit at home? For the prices I have seen for individual actuators so far, I could just put every socket, every light switch, every lamp in the technical room and wire them together there in the control cabinet, rearranging as I please. For whatever reason... I have never felt the need to regularly change switch assignments in any apartment.
If you really do it cleanly, you’d run a single power line through the house plus the bus conductor. That won’t work because of circuit breakers and so on. So it mostly stays the same as before: one circuit per room. That doesn’t save a single meter of cable. And on top of that, you still need the expensive actuators.
So please enlighten an ignorant person: what is the advantage of connecting my lights or sockets to a KNX? I can accept a few special cases like roller shutters, outdoor lighting at the main door, etc., but I’m not going to spend €10,000 (around $11,000) just for that.
I’m definitely a tinkerer at heart, but so far, this hasn’t sparked my curiosity...
Best regards,
Andreas
Taken out of context, my statement might sound like you can save money...
Of course, a bus system costs more than conventional wiring—that’s just the nature of it—but it offers significant added value. If you’re not familiar with what living with a bus system in a house is like, it can seem confusing and unnecessary.
But it’s like everything in life: until you experience something, you don’t miss it; afterwards, you don’t want to live without it.
Look at all the people with and without ventilation systems in their homes—those with one would never want to live without it again, while others simply don’t care and prefer to open a window.
Another example: the increasing amount of electronics in cars. A few decades ago, people were just happy to have something that would get them from point A to point B. Nowadays, a new vehicle without central locking and power windows is unthinkable.
It’s the same with home automation—you can compare conventional electrical wiring to a bicycle. It gets you from A to B, but you have to pedal yourself.
The solution you described, with all the sockets and light switches wired back to the main distribution panel (like Loxone, Eltako, etc.), is like a 1989 VW Golf—you don’t have to pedal anymore, you still reach your destination, and you can carry passengers and luggage.
A decentralized bus system like KNX is more like a modern car filled with electronics—brake assist, voice control, navigation system, parking assist, plenty of airbags, and a lot of metal around to protect the occupants—not just to get you from A to B, but to do so very safely and comfortably.
Of course, this isn’t absolutely necessary; as I said, you can reach your destination by bicycle, but it takes longer and requires your own effort.
My post referred to making full use of the possibilities when you choose a bus system. In the case of, for example, Loxone, there are hardly any cost advantages compared to KNX, as this thread shows; however, functionality and expandability are relatively limited.
To fully break it down: you can save money by carefully selecting components from the start, but if you just buy randomly and then use less than half of the possible functions, why spend the money? It’s better to inform yourself and, if necessary, get help from someone who knows the system.
Let’s be honest.
Where do the high costs come from? Firstly, the electrician’s eyes light up with dollar or euro signs as soon as they hear "bus system," and the clients—often not knowledgeable—agree to everything. Secondly, the client usually wants much more than the general contractor offers with standard wiring.
I hardly know any client with conventional wiring who has window contacts on every individual window sash. In houses with bus systems, this is always expected and significantly increases the costs, even though these contacts are just a nice-to-have, and many remain unused—especially if the house also has a ventilation system.
You yourself mentioned the advantages of bus systems—you don’t need as many cables and get the possibility to control everything from a single point (and more). That point can be inside the house, in the garden, at work, and so on. If you expand it further, you reach the area of self-acting devices based on presence or absence, etc.
I would also argue that what you get conventionally wired today, regardless of the price (which remains a secret between the electrician and the general contractor), for example:
a 4-5 room house plus kitchen, bathroom with one heating point, and three sockets per room
can be done with KNX in a standard house for about 5,000 euros (approximately 5,400 USD).
So no 10,000 or 20,000 euros and definitely not more...
Of course, a bus system costs more than conventional wiring—that’s just the nature of it—but it offers significant added value. If you’re not familiar with what living with a bus system in a house is like, it can seem confusing and unnecessary.
But it’s like everything in life: until you experience something, you don’t miss it; afterwards, you don’t want to live without it.
Look at all the people with and without ventilation systems in their homes—those with one would never want to live without it again, while others simply don’t care and prefer to open a window.
Another example: the increasing amount of electronics in cars. A few decades ago, people were just happy to have something that would get them from point A to point B. Nowadays, a new vehicle without central locking and power windows is unthinkable.
It’s the same with home automation—you can compare conventional electrical wiring to a bicycle. It gets you from A to B, but you have to pedal yourself.
The solution you described, with all the sockets and light switches wired back to the main distribution panel (like Loxone, Eltako, etc.), is like a 1989 VW Golf—you don’t have to pedal anymore, you still reach your destination, and you can carry passengers and luggage.
A decentralized bus system like KNX is more like a modern car filled with electronics—brake assist, voice control, navigation system, parking assist, plenty of airbags, and a lot of metal around to protect the occupants—not just to get you from A to B, but to do so very safely and comfortably.
Of course, this isn’t absolutely necessary; as I said, you can reach your destination by bicycle, but it takes longer and requires your own effort.
My post referred to making full use of the possibilities when you choose a bus system. In the case of, for example, Loxone, there are hardly any cost advantages compared to KNX, as this thread shows; however, functionality and expandability are relatively limited.
To fully break it down: you can save money by carefully selecting components from the start, but if you just buy randomly and then use less than half of the possible functions, why spend the money? It’s better to inform yourself and, if necessary, get help from someone who knows the system.
Let’s be honest.
Where do the high costs come from? Firstly, the electrician’s eyes light up with dollar or euro signs as soon as they hear "bus system," and the clients—often not knowledgeable—agree to everything. Secondly, the client usually wants much more than the general contractor offers with standard wiring.
I hardly know any client with conventional wiring who has window contacts on every individual window sash. In houses with bus systems, this is always expected and significantly increases the costs, even though these contacts are just a nice-to-have, and many remain unused—especially if the house also has a ventilation system.
You yourself mentioned the advantages of bus systems—you don’t need as many cables and get the possibility to control everything from a single point (and more). That point can be inside the house, in the garden, at work, and so on. If you expand it further, you reach the area of self-acting devices based on presence or absence, etc.
I would also argue that what you get conventionally wired today, regardless of the price (which remains a secret between the electrician and the general contractor), for example:
a 4-5 room house plus kitchen, bathroom with one heating point, and three sockets per room
can be done with KNX in a standard house for about 5,000 euros (approximately 5,400 USD).
So no 10,000 or 20,000 euros and definitely not more...
I find the comparison you’re making, Mycraft, a bit exaggerated—the difference isn’t that big (bicycle versus modern car).
It also depends on personal usage habits. I notice that I use power outlets 99.9999% of the time just to plug in a device and do something with it (charging batteries, vacuuming, using kitchen appliances make up a large portion of our household usage). Light switches are used to turn on or off the lights in the room I’m in (and quite efficiently, basically “on the go”). The electric blinds operate automatically; occasionally I switch them manually, for example, when the children are taking a nap.
Therefore, I don’t see where additional wiring or KNX automation would offer me an advantage. For instance, I only need lighting in the office when I am actually there, so I don’t need to “reroute” it to other switches. Despite all the automation ideas shared here in the forum, I can’t think of anything that saves time and increases convenience—say what you will.
Car analogies just don’t fit here because my house doesn’t have
And there really isn’t anything that makes running a home with KNX (car vs. bicycle analogy) six times faster and more comfortable in everyday life.
It also depends on personal usage habits. I notice that I use power outlets 99.9999% of the time just to plug in a device and do something with it (charging batteries, vacuuming, using kitchen appliances make up a large portion of our household usage). Light switches are used to turn on or off the lights in the room I’m in (and quite efficiently, basically “on the go”). The electric blinds operate automatically; occasionally I switch them manually, for example, when the children are taking a nap.
Therefore, I don’t see where additional wiring or KNX automation would offer me an advantage. For instance, I only need lighting in the office when I am actually there, so I don’t need to “reroute” it to other switches. Despite all the automation ideas shared here in the forum, I can’t think of anything that saves time and increases convenience—say what you will.
Car analogies just don’t fit here because my house doesn’t have
brake assist, voice control, navigation system, parking assist, airbags galore.
And there really isn’t anything that makes running a home with KNX (car vs. bicycle analogy) six times faster and more comfortable in everyday life.