ᐅ Single-family house with a recessed upper floor, southwest-facing, located in Bonn
Created on: 5 Oct 2020 20:40
B
Benrath
Hello everyone,
we have purchased one of three plots that were divided from a larger property and still need to be developed. Access is via a private road, and all three owners share the traffic area equally. The plot is very well connected for us, located centrally in Bonn, and is perhaps a bit larger than we actually needed. However, it’s not like there are always free plots available in a similar location.
Because there was a lengthy legal dispute between the seller and the neighbors beforehand, we can only build a partial recessed upper floor to a limited extent. Probably for this reason, the plot was mainly interesting for private buyers. An accessory apartment is not possible, and we don’t want one anyway.
Up until now, the planning was done from scratch without considering costs or practical aspects, at least from our side. The architect apparently enjoys drawing, which is understandable at this stage and has a certain artistic approach. We are generally open to all suggestions and ideas on what could be done differently, especially where costs might be saved easily.
Our next step will be to conclude an architect contract for service phases 1 to 5 plus general contractor / main contractor.
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size: >800sqm (8600 sq ft), no slope, building envelope etc. See plan.
Parking spaces: 1 on traffic area and 1 garage
Number of storeys: Only 1 full storey plus a recessed upper floor
Roof style: Flat roof; architectural style: rather Bauhaus
Orientation: Front of the house faces southwest
Maximum height/limits: 7–8m (23–26 ft)
Owners’ requirements
We basically have no specific style requirements. A flat roof results partly from the recessed upper floor and height restrictions, which probably don’t allow a pitched roof.
We want a basement with excavation and two daylight rooms (this was more the architect’s idea). Currently, there are three of us, possibly four in the future. Early 30s and a baby.
We had planned for just over 100sqm (1076 sq ft) on the ground floor and about 75% of that upstairs. Currently, it’s roughly 230sqm (2475 sq ft) ground floor and upper floor combined plus terraces, etc., and the basement.
Office: occasional use, not very important.
Number of overnight guests per year: unknown, but a guest room is planned
Open kitchen, kitchen island: We definitely want a separate kitchen area and like the suggestion of an extended island
Number of dining seats: 4 in the kitchen, more like 8 in the dining room
Fireplace: Not very important, probably no.
Music/surround sound system: 5.1 system around the TV
Balcony, roof terrace: Terrace is a must, balcony above the kitchen results from the recessed floor
Garage, carport: The garage width of 4.5m (15 ft) is unusual and probably makes it more expensive.
House design by the architect
What do we particularly like? Why? Good use of the sunny side, and otherwise all our wishes have been taken into account.
Upper floor: 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Master bedroom with en-suite bathroom and walk-in closet.
What don’t we like? Why? I could imagine a nicer staircase, perhaps a longer, more open design. Overall, the hallway feels a bit large.
The upper-floor terrace seems somewhat oversized. We are wondering if the overhang casts too much shade on the ground floor.
Price estimate according to architect/planner: with general contractor and all additional costs >900,000€ (over 900,000 euros)
Personal budget limit for the house, including fittings: rather below that.
Preferred heating technology: no opinion so far
Why does the design look like it does?
For example:
There was an initial meeting with the architect during which our wishes were noted.
Ground floor: separated kitchen, combined living/dining area. Another separate room as office/guest room (and possibly bedroom if needed).
Passage from the garage to the house, possibly as a utility room.
Upper floor: 3 rooms plus 2 bathrooms, including one en-suite.
First draft at the second meeting, and at the third meeting this final design was presented.
we have purchased one of three plots that were divided from a larger property and still need to be developed. Access is via a private road, and all three owners share the traffic area equally. The plot is very well connected for us, located centrally in Bonn, and is perhaps a bit larger than we actually needed. However, it’s not like there are always free plots available in a similar location.
Because there was a lengthy legal dispute between the seller and the neighbors beforehand, we can only build a partial recessed upper floor to a limited extent. Probably for this reason, the plot was mainly interesting for private buyers. An accessory apartment is not possible, and we don’t want one anyway.
Up until now, the planning was done from scratch without considering costs or practical aspects, at least from our side. The architect apparently enjoys drawing, which is understandable at this stage and has a certain artistic approach. We are generally open to all suggestions and ideas on what could be done differently, especially where costs might be saved easily.
Our next step will be to conclude an architect contract for service phases 1 to 5 plus general contractor / main contractor.
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size: >800sqm (8600 sq ft), no slope, building envelope etc. See plan.
Parking spaces: 1 on traffic area and 1 garage
Number of storeys: Only 1 full storey plus a recessed upper floor
Roof style: Flat roof; architectural style: rather Bauhaus
Orientation: Front of the house faces southwest
Maximum height/limits: 7–8m (23–26 ft)
Owners’ requirements
We basically have no specific style requirements. A flat roof results partly from the recessed upper floor and height restrictions, which probably don’t allow a pitched roof.
We want a basement with excavation and two daylight rooms (this was more the architect’s idea). Currently, there are three of us, possibly four in the future. Early 30s and a baby.
We had planned for just over 100sqm (1076 sq ft) on the ground floor and about 75% of that upstairs. Currently, it’s roughly 230sqm (2475 sq ft) ground floor and upper floor combined plus terraces, etc., and the basement.
Office: occasional use, not very important.
Number of overnight guests per year: unknown, but a guest room is planned
Open kitchen, kitchen island: We definitely want a separate kitchen area and like the suggestion of an extended island
Number of dining seats: 4 in the kitchen, more like 8 in the dining room
Fireplace: Not very important, probably no.
Music/surround sound system: 5.1 system around the TV
Balcony, roof terrace: Terrace is a must, balcony above the kitchen results from the recessed floor
Garage, carport: The garage width of 4.5m (15 ft) is unusual and probably makes it more expensive.
House design by the architect
What do we particularly like? Why? Good use of the sunny side, and otherwise all our wishes have been taken into account.
Upper floor: 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Master bedroom with en-suite bathroom and walk-in closet.
What don’t we like? Why? I could imagine a nicer staircase, perhaps a longer, more open design. Overall, the hallway feels a bit large.
The upper-floor terrace seems somewhat oversized. We are wondering if the overhang casts too much shade on the ground floor.
Price estimate according to architect/planner: with general contractor and all additional costs >900,000€ (over 900,000 euros)
Personal budget limit for the house, including fittings: rather below that.
Preferred heating technology: no opinion so far
Why does the design look like it does?
For example:
There was an initial meeting with the architect during which our wishes were noted.
Ground floor: separated kitchen, combined living/dining area. Another separate room as office/guest room (and possibly bedroom if needed).
Passage from the garage to the house, possibly as a utility room.
Upper floor: 3 rooms plus 2 bathrooms, including one en-suite.
First draft at the second meeting, and at the third meeting this final design was presented.
Climbee schrieb:
A lot of things just don’t add up for me.For example, no guests planned but a small hallway corner reserved... I would assign that to the wing space...Alessandro schrieb:
I honestly can’t understand the entire criticism.Now don’t exaggerate. A forum is meant for bringing up everything that stands out. It gives the original poster the chance to adjust and reconsider their plans. Or is the message: you can do it, but you don’t have to?Alessandro schrieb:
I won’t say anything about the wing, I agree with you there.And you’re not the final authority to decide that the “wing” is a problem, but a too-long hallway is not, just because you found some nice pictures on Pinterest. The hallway under discussion here has nothing to do with the hallways you pulled from the internet. You must be really bored in your home office 😎Alessandro schrieb:
Some people, and they’re usually the same ones, always project their own preferences onto others, even though they follow a completely different style.I feel targeted, but that’s fine. Because you’re wrong: I also like long hallways. But only if they exist (older buildings) or if I intentionally design them with natural daylight or a visual axis, for example a staircase. Now look at the hallway in question: where does it resemble the ones you showed? There is no old building charm intended here, no daylight flooding in from the side. It’s basically just a narrow corridor with closets, without light... If you look at the house from the outside, plenty of daylight is intended. Great — but then you arrive upstairs and only see walls left, right, and straight ahead. My point:
ypg schrieb:
And I would never show a hallway like that on the upper floor to my clients. I’d rather hide it with built-in wardrobes or put a window at the end of the hall and present it as intentionally designed for displaying art on the walls.Alessandro schrieb:
A long hallway without direct sunlight can look really modern! It depends on the lighting...Alessandro schrieb:
I don’t see anything that’s been desperately prettified here, especially not on the ground floor. It is open and works perfectly! And I, for example, like long hallways—even in new buildings.You don’t have to sugarcoat it when it could be done differently.Benrath schrieb:
I still consider the issues about structural cuts to be a red herring and pseudo-arguments that were never substantiated. The software can place those anywhere, and another independent architect we consulted confirmed that. I trust him more on this.You shouldn’t focus on side issues or isolated posts. Try to evaluate the criticism with a clear mind and not with bruised ego. How you finally build is your decision. If you don’t want criticism, just don’t follow this thread or only post your progress updates. But you’ll keep finding some positive feedback here — and that’s fine, allowed even. Just accept that some points won’t make sense to you.If I wanted to build that big, with a rooftop terrace and large windows upstairs, I would arrange them off a living corridor upstairs, with the bedrooms on one side and the terrace on the other. Then the staircase would get full attention and not be relegated to the shadows 🙂
Alessandro schrieb:
Otherwise, some people here would loudly claim they’d lick all ten fingers if they had such a house. Man, man, man, such generalized statements really get on my nerves.
There are several posts here that are genuinely well-informed with constructive criticism, and then you come up with a comment like that.
And then you come up with hallway suggestions that could come from a hotel, pictures distorted by open doors, and so on.
We built in a very similar style, just with a partial basement (about 69sqm (740 sq ft)), ground floor (about 110sqm (1184 sq ft)) and upper floor (about 95sqm (1023 sq ft)). So at least I don’t need to lick my fingers here.
I’m trying to help and have mentioned several points. Starting with the budget: the original poster envisions something below the targeted 900,000 euros including construction incidental costs. I predict that simply won’t work with the size. The basement is almost 148 square meters (1593 sq ft), the ground floor 150 sqm (1615 sq ft), and the upper floor about 91 sqm (979 sq ft). This will end up costing over 1,000,000 euros. @11ant mentioned the structural engineering — that really can’t be underestimated here, and that makes the whole thing expensive.
The many flat roof surfaces, the garage added on top of that, and then the landscaping outside. I hope @Benrath is aware of all this.
We also ended up around this sum, just for the house. And we did a lot ourselves, often getting good prices with own equity.
For example, the entrance area is about as large as ours, but there are no storage or shelf areas — you always have to go to the built-in closet in front of the stairs and carry dirt into the house.
What I also can’t wrap my head around is why an architect doesn’t manage to position a straight staircase in a house of this size. With a house this big, I would never want a “double-flight staircase.”
@Würfel* suggested a great layout for the upper floor; we implemented something quite similar.
I don’t think the basement has been discussed yet. @Benrath, do you really need it that big? Because you’re burying a lot of money there.
@Benrath, what ceiling heights are planned? I couldn’t find that information anywhere.
P
pagoni20201 Dec 2020 15:31Benrath schrieb:
For example, the topic of the grand piano. It’s been a family heirloom since 19xx from my grandfather. I can play a little, but maybe one of the children will play it someday.
In that sense, it might just serve as decoration or it might actually be used. Regardless, it’s planned for. If my child is still a baby and a second child is only a hope or plan, and I myself "play a bit" on the piano which often goes out of tune, then I don’t arrange my space around it. Maybe in 8 years it will be the tuba or the didgeridoo instead.
So far, no actual furniture dimensions have been drawn in that match your needs or feasible wishes, which is why I’m surprised when someone loudly states: “That fits!” WHAT...? ...fits? The drawn-in, dimensionless blocks, the grand piano drawn more like a small electronic organ on the plan?? Okay, everything somehow fits. So then it’s all good again.
Benrath schrieb:
that the furniture usually adapts to the room more than the other way around. Yes, that can be seen that way—as the body adapts to any seat. So it could be a wooden stool, a shower where you have to bend, or a kitchen with a worktop height of 70cm (28 inches). Anything goes. And...
Alessandro schrieb:
a long hallway without direct sunlight can look really modern! It all depends on the lighting... True... I’ve seen some super stylish cave-like apartments. With lighting, they were great; I should upload some pictures of that sometime. It can work without heating too... I just have to buy more sweaters. What a strong argument....... 😀… everything somehow works.
Benrath schrieb:
Furniture lasts X years and some things need to be replaced anyway, for example the whole kitchen. ...and what does that tell me about finding a nice floor plan??
Alessandro schrieb:
Honestly, I really don’t understand the criticism. ...which as a sole fact means nothing at all.
Alessandro schrieb:
The ground floor works perfectly. Really? In what way? How do you define your idea of “working” in terms of the lifestyle of a person who apparently is a stranger to you, hasn’t shared priorities, and hasn’t marked any furniture with dimensions? True: doors, windows, dining table, sofa… all there… fits!
Alessandro schrieb:
because that way you have a direct view of the dining table. Does the original poster (OP) want that? I don’t think I read that anywhere. Also, with the angled version, the four bar stools would have to turn 180 degrees, and the cook could see part of the table from the stove... but why? It was supposed to be separate. So, what now?
Alessandro schrieb:
Also, it loosens things up a bit. ...and why would an angled door somehow “loosen up” something that was previously “not loose”? Maybe one could make it “loose” right away and save oneself such measures. In a building like this, with my questionable taste, I wouldn’t like angled components.
As @Alessandro already pointed out:
Alessandro schrieb:
Here are people with very different tastes in architecture and interior design. I’m glad about that and assumed it was common knowledge not needing special mention.
Alessandro schrieb:
Otherwise, some people here would loudly claim they’d lick all ten fingers if they had a house like this. Message to everyone with under 200 square meters (about 2,150 square feet) of living space, including you... from now on keep quiet and quietly keep “licking your fingers.”
Alessandro schrieb:
don’t let anyone talk you into anything. Who would want to talk @Benrath into anything? You aren’t exactly subtle yourself, so you should allow others their comments without feeding them nonsense. I rather feel you are trying to push the OP one of your internet finds—in this case, cave dwellings. So please stop trying to “talk them into it.” In Scandinavia people get medicine for lack of sunlight; we can solve that architecturally here without drugs.
Alessandro schrieb:
You would criticize their houses just as much as they do yours! Of course; I hope so, and I’d be worried if it weren’t the case.
You seem to see criticism as a competition, like “Ha, your house is silly too.” I explicitly want someone to look at my project, take time, and offer honest opinions.
Pat-on-the-back praise doesn’t help me. I already know I’m a great guy. It’s more helpful when someone points out where I might have made mistakes. That can be a lifelong tenant of a two-room damp apartment just as much as a villa owner, regardless of their “finger-licking” or not—that’s just silly. If criticism scares you or you prefer excessive praise, you can buy thousands of likes these days.
Benrath schrieb:
Thanks for one positive point What exactly was positive about that? Do you feel personally attacked or see this as some contest for your dream house against forum opponents? You don’t have to. Today’s pat-on-the-back praise won’t fix your possible planning flaws found later.
Alessandro schrieb:
and I have absolutely nothing against others’ opinions. ...you just express it a bit differently 😀, namely…
Alessandro schrieb:
Otherwise, some people here would loudly claim they’d lick all ten fingers if they had a house like this. Alessandro schrieb:
Some, and it’s usually always the same ones, always project their own views onto others, How vague and unclear, yet everyone has a name here. WHO exactly are those dishonorable “same” finger-lickers? We’re among ourselves here... come on, spill it.
Because they say what they themselves feel, you casually accuse them of “always projecting their own views onto others.” Isn’t it true you are projecting your views onto others yourself?
Alessandro schrieb:
We probably have a different understanding of disrespect, because I see none in my last sentence. That was clear already; self-centered perspectives are always harder.
Climbee schrieb:
What I really miss is bringing these ideas and wishes to life. Sitting down and figuring out how much space a grand piano needs, how much space for a chair at the table, etc. Nothing to add to that in principle... but I have time 🙂
@Benrath If you actually feel attacked or believe, as suggested here, that someone doesn’t wish you well with your house out of “finger-licking” jealousy 😀 that would be a shame, but in that case I would suggest you just go your own way and don’t post it publicly anymore.
Surely every home builder sees things differently, including me as a repeat builder. None of it is necessarily better suited for you. For my first house, I would have wished for more varied and critical voices that might have taken some illusions out of my head, because I was too euphoric at the time; joy is good, euphoria often annoying and expensive. That’s why I sometimes wonder about those who just built their first house and therefore have no real long-term experience with growing children or changing lifestyles. Age and experience alone are no benchmarks of quality or performance, just as confident appearance combined with inexperience isn’t; your challenge is to identify what’s important for you.
Therefore, I believe it always makes sense to especially listen to critical voices and not exclude critics just because they have less living space or a smaller budget out of arrogance.
Honestly, reading such stuff tires me out.
A
Alessandro1 Dec 2020 15:35@Baufie :Show your floor plan so we have a benchmark! 😀
The corridors are from a single-family house.
All the best to your nuts!
The corridors are from a single-family house.
All the best to your nuts!
I don’t quite understand the issue right now. This is what I have taken away so far:
Proposal for the upper floor from Würfel
and the furniture layout*
I simply see the needs and what should be based on what differently. What exactly is expected from me at the moment?
Otherwise, I currently don’t see any specific proposals that I either consciously ignore or just see differently. It’s easy to lose track here.
Or I don’t recognize any concrete proposals in some posts that I could take on board now. Otherwise, please repeat them.
We are still at a fairly early stage, and the start of construction is, for various reasons partly explained in the first post, not before May 2021.
* According to my wife, the architect wants to discuss the furniture layout with us later. So far, the grand piano is just a block in the corner.
I wrote down our needs in the first post and again 2–3 pages back.
I still need to reconsider the last two proposals from @Alessandro. I can even imagine the window. On the other hand, the hallway should improve with the change in the stair direction, because then the stairs go down there, allowing light from the staircase area to come in.
The point about the door is valid; the reasoning was probably wind protection, etc. Another well-known architect even argues for an additional windbreak, basically a second airlock. Maybe the door can be positioned slightly more forward.
Proposal for the upper floor from Würfel
and the furniture layout*
I simply see the needs and what should be based on what differently. What exactly is expected from me at the moment?
Otherwise, I currently don’t see any specific proposals that I either consciously ignore or just see differently. It’s easy to lose track here.
Or I don’t recognize any concrete proposals in some posts that I could take on board now. Otherwise, please repeat them.
We are still at a fairly early stage, and the start of construction is, for various reasons partly explained in the first post, not before May 2021.
* According to my wife, the architect wants to discuss the furniture layout with us later. So far, the grand piano is just a block in the corner.
I wrote down our needs in the first post and again 2–3 pages back.
I still need to reconsider the last two proposals from @Alessandro. I can even imagine the window. On the other hand, the hallway should improve with the change in the stair direction, because then the stairs go down there, allowing light from the staircase area to come in.
The point about the door is valid; the reasoning was probably wind protection, etc. Another well-known architect even argues for an additional windbreak, basically a second airlock. Maybe the door can be positioned slightly more forward.
Alessandro schrieb:
Otherwise, some people here would loudly claim they would lick all ten fingers if they had such a house. What a sentence! As if this Bauhaus edition were the be-all and end-all. Sorry. It has its purpose, but not everyone wants it. It’s not the ultimate just because it matches your taste.
Alessandro schrieb:
Here are people with very different tastes regarding architecture and interior design. But it’s not just about taste; it’s also about functionality and objective evaluation.
Alessandro schrieb:
Some, and it’s usually the same ones, keep projecting their preferences onto others, even though they follow a completely different style. Not at all. You do that by implying everything has to revolve around those two-story houses with rooftop terraces. That devalues everything else.
Alessandro schrieb:
@Baufie :Show us your floor plan so we have a benchmark! 😀
The corridors are from a single-family house.
All the best to your nuts! I think the flattering words about your house have gone to your head a bit. Just because not everyone builds the same way doesn’t mean theirs is worse. Many do not want the interchangeable gray in the bathrooms or the boxy construction that is almost uniform here.
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