ᐅ Single-family house with a recessed upper floor, southwest-facing, located in Bonn
Created on: 5 Oct 2020 20:40
B
Benrath
Hello everyone,
we have purchased one of three plots that were divided from a larger property and still need to be developed. Access is via a private road, and all three owners share the traffic area equally. The plot is very well connected for us, located centrally in Bonn, and is perhaps a bit larger than we actually needed. However, it’s not like there are always free plots available in a similar location.
Because there was a lengthy legal dispute between the seller and the neighbors beforehand, we can only build a partial recessed upper floor to a limited extent. Probably for this reason, the plot was mainly interesting for private buyers. An accessory apartment is not possible, and we don’t want one anyway.
Up until now, the planning was done from scratch without considering costs or practical aspects, at least from our side. The architect apparently enjoys drawing, which is understandable at this stage and has a certain artistic approach. We are generally open to all suggestions and ideas on what could be done differently, especially where costs might be saved easily.
Our next step will be to conclude an architect contract for service phases 1 to 5 plus general contractor / main contractor.
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size: >800sqm (8600 sq ft), no slope, building envelope etc. See plan.
Parking spaces: 1 on traffic area and 1 garage
Number of storeys: Only 1 full storey plus a recessed upper floor
Roof style: Flat roof; architectural style: rather Bauhaus
Orientation: Front of the house faces southwest
Maximum height/limits: 7–8m (23–26 ft)
Owners’ requirements
We basically have no specific style requirements. A flat roof results partly from the recessed upper floor and height restrictions, which probably don’t allow a pitched roof.
We want a basement with excavation and two daylight rooms (this was more the architect’s idea). Currently, there are three of us, possibly four in the future. Early 30s and a baby.
We had planned for just over 100sqm (1076 sq ft) on the ground floor and about 75% of that upstairs. Currently, it’s roughly 230sqm (2475 sq ft) ground floor and upper floor combined plus terraces, etc., and the basement.
Office: occasional use, not very important.
Number of overnight guests per year: unknown, but a guest room is planned
Open kitchen, kitchen island: We definitely want a separate kitchen area and like the suggestion of an extended island
Number of dining seats: 4 in the kitchen, more like 8 in the dining room
Fireplace: Not very important, probably no.
Music/surround sound system: 5.1 system around the TV
Balcony, roof terrace: Terrace is a must, balcony above the kitchen results from the recessed floor
Garage, carport: The garage width of 4.5m (15 ft) is unusual and probably makes it more expensive.
House design by the architect
What do we particularly like? Why? Good use of the sunny side, and otherwise all our wishes have been taken into account.
Upper floor: 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Master bedroom with en-suite bathroom and walk-in closet.
What don’t we like? Why? I could imagine a nicer staircase, perhaps a longer, more open design. Overall, the hallway feels a bit large.
The upper-floor terrace seems somewhat oversized. We are wondering if the overhang casts too much shade on the ground floor.
Price estimate according to architect/planner: with general contractor and all additional costs >900,000€ (over 900,000 euros)
Personal budget limit for the house, including fittings: rather below that.
Preferred heating technology: no opinion so far
Why does the design look like it does?
For example:
There was an initial meeting with the architect during which our wishes were noted.
Ground floor: separated kitchen, combined living/dining area. Another separate room as office/guest room (and possibly bedroom if needed).
Passage from the garage to the house, possibly as a utility room.
Upper floor: 3 rooms plus 2 bathrooms, including one en-suite.
First draft at the second meeting, and at the third meeting this final design was presented.
we have purchased one of three plots that were divided from a larger property and still need to be developed. Access is via a private road, and all three owners share the traffic area equally. The plot is very well connected for us, located centrally in Bonn, and is perhaps a bit larger than we actually needed. However, it’s not like there are always free plots available in a similar location.
Because there was a lengthy legal dispute between the seller and the neighbors beforehand, we can only build a partial recessed upper floor to a limited extent. Probably for this reason, the plot was mainly interesting for private buyers. An accessory apartment is not possible, and we don’t want one anyway.
Up until now, the planning was done from scratch without considering costs or practical aspects, at least from our side. The architect apparently enjoys drawing, which is understandable at this stage and has a certain artistic approach. We are generally open to all suggestions and ideas on what could be done differently, especially where costs might be saved easily.
Our next step will be to conclude an architect contract for service phases 1 to 5 plus general contractor / main contractor.
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size: >800sqm (8600 sq ft), no slope, building envelope etc. See plan.
Parking spaces: 1 on traffic area and 1 garage
Number of storeys: Only 1 full storey plus a recessed upper floor
Roof style: Flat roof; architectural style: rather Bauhaus
Orientation: Front of the house faces southwest
Maximum height/limits: 7–8m (23–26 ft)
Owners’ requirements
We basically have no specific style requirements. A flat roof results partly from the recessed upper floor and height restrictions, which probably don’t allow a pitched roof.
We want a basement with excavation and two daylight rooms (this was more the architect’s idea). Currently, there are three of us, possibly four in the future. Early 30s and a baby.
We had planned for just over 100sqm (1076 sq ft) on the ground floor and about 75% of that upstairs. Currently, it’s roughly 230sqm (2475 sq ft) ground floor and upper floor combined plus terraces, etc., and the basement.
Office: occasional use, not very important.
Number of overnight guests per year: unknown, but a guest room is planned
Open kitchen, kitchen island: We definitely want a separate kitchen area and like the suggestion of an extended island
Number of dining seats: 4 in the kitchen, more like 8 in the dining room
Fireplace: Not very important, probably no.
Music/surround sound system: 5.1 system around the TV
Balcony, roof terrace: Terrace is a must, balcony above the kitchen results from the recessed floor
Garage, carport: The garage width of 4.5m (15 ft) is unusual and probably makes it more expensive.
House design by the architect
What do we particularly like? Why? Good use of the sunny side, and otherwise all our wishes have been taken into account.
Upper floor: 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Master bedroom with en-suite bathroom and walk-in closet.
What don’t we like? Why? I could imagine a nicer staircase, perhaps a longer, more open design. Overall, the hallway feels a bit large.
The upper-floor terrace seems somewhat oversized. We are wondering if the overhang casts too much shade on the ground floor.
Price estimate according to architect/planner: with general contractor and all additional costs >900,000€ (over 900,000 euros)
Personal budget limit for the house, including fittings: rather below that.
Preferred heating technology: no opinion so far
Why does the design look like it does?
For example:
There was an initial meeting with the architect during which our wishes were noted.
Ground floor: separated kitchen, combined living/dining area. Another separate room as office/guest room (and possibly bedroom if needed).
Passage from the garage to the house, possibly as a utility room.
Upper floor: 3 rooms plus 2 bathrooms, including one en-suite.
First draft at the second meeting, and at the third meeting this final design was presented.
P
pagoni202030 Nov 2020 17:31Benrath schrieb:
In general, it’s a good idea to give some more concrete thought to the dimensions and placement of the furniture, at least on the ground floor. Also in the kitchen. On the other hand, we still have quite a lot of flexibility to adapt to the room, and the size allows for quite a bit of possibilities. Okay, but do it the other way around. Look at how much space you need, what feels comfortable for you. Size alone doesn’t make it. Furniture dimensions and the idea of where/how you want to sit are absolutely essential; I’m actually surprised that the architect just drew in placeholders. Do you want to watch TV exactly there? Is the distance to the TV right, or maybe you want a small “media room” because you like to watch “Geierwally” while your partner plays the grand piano? What sofa size, how do you want to sit, etc. Once you have that, you can measure and test it at home. All of this is very important.
Benrath schrieb:
On the other hand, we still have quite a lot of flexibility to adapt to the room, and the size allows for quite a bit of possibilities. The other way around… you should adapt the room to yourselves and your needs.
Benrath schrieb:
What do you mean by the entrance conveying access to the central dining table? I imagine the dining table rather placed diagonally so that it fits with the grand piano. We’re planning more for an L-shaped sofa and an additional armchair/chair. I like it when you consciously see the dining table in the middle when you enter the house, with some open space behind it... maybe that’s just my quirk 🤨
Benrath schrieb:
I imagine the dining table rather placed diagonally. ...it’s not drawn that way, and it won’t take more space. You’re building in a square/rectangular shape… I don’t like the diagonal positioning at all.
Benrath schrieb:
...so that it fits with the grand piano. ...so you’ll just keep moving things around until the “furniture and music stuff” fits somehow? … in 60sqm (645 sq ft)! Who actually plays the piano? Does it really happen, is someone a musician, or is it more or less just decoration? Maybe the piano and TV should be spatially separated, more than just kitchen + living area? What are your habits?
In a great, modern house, both the dining area and the (if used) grand piano should have their desired place, not be rotated endlessly to avoid bumping knees.
I’m missing your clear priorities here. If someone really loves playing this instrument, then that person needs to say what and how they need it, just like a craftsman defines their workbench. The space, privacy, and clear entitlement for something like that are necessary. If the piano is “just” an heirloom or decoration, then it shouldn’t force me to place my beautiful dining area awkwardly. THAT is the consideration here. Is regular, nice dining as an event at the large table important, or is music, TV, or something else the priority? Neither should be forced.
Benrath schrieb:
We’re planning more for an L-shaped sofa and an additional armchair/chair. Sizes? How will you arrange them, how do you usually want to sit? Facing the TV straight on or mostly for communication, etc.?
Benrath schrieb:
In my opinion, many only judge the floor plan and, naturally, question everything due to lack of background information, without knowing the broader context. That’s true, so you have to provide it, or you’ll receive diverse answers. Personal priorities MUST be reflected in the space; if you don’t name them, it will probably be difficult here.
Benrath schrieb:
That’s okay, but it feels like none of my explanations are accepted or even considered. No one has to accept anything. EVERYONE wants to help you, and you alone decide if the help is useful. Nobody needs pats on the back. Criticism often stings at first, but if you understand the meaning and don’t feel attacked, it can also help.
Benrath schrieb:
If I could, I’d prefer to build only 210-220 sqm (2,260–2,370 sq ft) and save on the ground floor, but the 100 sqm (1,076 sq ft) upstairs resulting from our requirements (2 children’s rooms, children’s bathroom, parent’s areas (bathroom, dressing, bedroom)) unfortunately require 150 sqm (1,615 sq ft) on the ground floor, because of the mezzanine and 66% rule according to old building regulations. That’s why, for example, the somewhat oversized “all-purpose room” and the satellite kitchen. I don’t think you’re basically forced to build that large. The architect should be able to solve that, maybe some priorities shift, maybe you even skip the expensive basement... you are three after all!
Benrath schrieb:
If working were really just working and not more like a guest space, I could see the point in connecting it through the living room. Even if I make the bathroom bigger, it would have to be an en-suite bathroom to the guest room. And why can’t the guest, who is rarely there anyway, have the room in the basement and not take space on the main living level? Guest/work room downstairs or upstairs; nobody wants a bathroom that’s a walk-through room.
Benrath schrieb:
And the desire for a separate kitchen just exists. Just do that and add a few square meters, creating a nice, spacious kitchen/dining area with an opening to the terrace. There are thousands of options here that your architect or an interior designer should implement. Doing it yourself feels difficult because when you move something here, something else often falls over...
I somehow miss the personal element, what is important to YOU. Is it the great dining area, the kitchen as a meeting/communication space, the TV corner with the big screen, the musical instrument, cooking itself... that personal aspect. Maybe you should name that.
As mentioned, I have no problem with criticism, suggestions, etc., like your posts or those from Würfel and Ypgs, but some things seem a bit unconstructive from my perspective. I’m just dabbling with it.
Anyhow, I’ll take the furniture placement into account, and at the moment I find Würfel’s latest proposal quite good. However, this means there would be no more visual connection to the ground floor.
The architect can only work within certain limits when we have the space requirements we do on the upper floor, which is only 66% of the total. What else can he do?
The space requirements (see also the original post) for the upper floor were:
1. Two children’s bedrooms
2. Children’s bathroom
3. Master bedroom
4. En suite bathroom
5. Walk-in closet
For the ground floor, we wanted:
1. Living/dining room
2. Separate kitchen
3. Another guest/office room; the guest/office room is also a contingency solution for the future if we ever become disabled.
4. Guest bathroom with shower
5. Laundry/mudroom with entrance from the garage
Anyhow, I’ll take the furniture placement into account, and at the moment I find Würfel’s latest proposal quite good. However, this means there would be no more visual connection to the ground floor.
The architect can only work within certain limits when we have the space requirements we do on the upper floor, which is only 66% of the total. What else can he do?
The space requirements (see also the original post) for the upper floor were:
1. Two children’s bedrooms
2. Children’s bathroom
3. Master bedroom
4. En suite bathroom
5. Walk-in closet
For the ground floor, we wanted:
1. Living/dining room
2. Separate kitchen
3. Another guest/office room; the guest/office room is also a contingency solution for the future if we ever become disabled.
4. Guest bathroom with shower
5. Laundry/mudroom with entrance from the garage
Benrath schrieb:
So, for example, with a grand piano, we also have an item that needs to be accommodated somewhere. Where does that suddenly come from? 🤨
Benrath schrieb:
In my opinion, many only evaluate the floor plan and naturally question everything due to a lack of background information, without knowing the surrounding context. That’s fine, but it feels like none of my explanations are accepted or even considered.
The garage, for example, wouldn’t make sense anywhere else on the plot because Well, when there was still some flexibility, the measurements were missing besides those for the piano.
The questionnaire would have given you the chance to explain what else is important. The pinned posts recommend drawing the neighborhood, etc. Feed the fish, and he’ll bite.
haydee schrieb:
The builder has a ruler for measurements.... The planning stage is still far from fitting my furniture. And with or without measurements, the children's rooms are small and awkwardly shaped compared to the living area and hallway.
Of course, if we had measurements, we’d have quite a few other comments. Also, I actually have to point out that this is the first thread where @haydee hasn’t recommended drawing in furniture.
Seems like we weren’t constructive enough 😳
Benrath schrieb:
Overall, it’s a good idea to at least make more concrete plans regarding furniture dimensions and placement on the ground floor, including the kitchen. Hmm... that has been our intention right from the start.
Benrath schrieb:
I imagine placing the dining table at an angle so it fits better with the piano. I’ve been told: if you place furniture at an angle, either you have too much space and need to fill gaps, or too little space and the angled placement is what fits best.
Benrath schrieb:
If I could, I’d prefer to build only 210–220 sq meters (2,260–2,370 sq ft) and save space downstairs. Is the basement now supposed to be cut?
Benrath schrieb:
From that perspective, the walk-in closet would be smaller and only serve as a passageway to the master bathroom, and the bedroom would only be accessible through the bathroom. The walk-in closet is currently just a passageway. Which wouldn’t be a problem in itself. But this walk-in closet is hardly one at all. You can’t even do any ironing in there.
Benrath schrieb:
As I said, no problem with criticism, suggestions, etc., like your posts or those from Würfel and also Ypg’s, but some feedback is, from my perspective, not very constructive. I’m persistent about that. I was constructive on page 1. We should be able to work without exact measurements.
Honestly, I don’t see any reason to stick rigidly to this design. The architect should be allowed to come up with something different for their fee, right? Here it feels like the design is just being tweaked endlessly, without trying a different layout. No one is saying that the architectural style is bad or that your idea of placing two children’s rooms upstairs is wrong.
It already started with an emergency staircase connecting the floors of your huge house. I don’t understand this narrow corridor extension on the ground floor. And I would never show a corridor like that upstairs to my clients. I’d rather disguise it with built-in closets or place a window at the end and sell it as intentionally designed art at the walls... but right now I’m doubting whether the architect, if there even is one, still cares.
Have they lost interest?
Benrath schrieb:
with the other parties?With whom else? Even though you say in post #35 that each of you has your own planner (wtf that is supposed to mean, especially since your floor plans show section lines with gaps counting up to 16), this entire property was clearly developed as a housing complex; and I think it makes sense to stick with that.
Benrath schrieb:
Well, very constructive, like all your posts in general.If you can’t make use of it, that’s unfortunate, but it doesn’t deserve ingratitude.https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
I think I’ve taken in enough for now, and at some point, there will be new designs to critique again 🙂
Especially thanks for Würfel’s suggestion. I’m currently considering that along with creating visual connections.
The neighborhood site plan is in the opening post. I describe the wing and some furniture for the first time in post 54.
Yes, the owner once had an overall development in mind, but now three parties have each purchased a plot.
Especially thanks for Würfel’s suggestion. I’m currently considering that along with creating visual connections.
The neighborhood site plan is in the opening post. I describe the wing and some furniture for the first time in post 54.
Yes, the owner once had an overall development in mind, but now three parties have each purchased a plot.
P
pagoni202030 Nov 2020 23:02Benrath schrieb:
new drafts for criticism will come up again eventually...until then, are you in withdrawal or what? Just don’t take it personally, everyone here is glad to contribute if they can. You’re the only one who will live there, but I will also clearly say when I don’t think something is good. As I said, you don’t need any pats on the back. Basically, you have to give the architect the tasks, and HE has to implement them. I would really have a second draft made as well, where you only tell him your real priorities. Be sure to include topics like door wings, eating habits, TV setup, sofa habits, individual habits of your family, and maybe even the subject of an underground garage or building without a basement—so a completely new draft. I’m not a fan of tinkering with this either.Similar topics