ᐅ Single-Family Home Energy Saving Regulation 2016: Is Additional Insulation Recommended by Developers Worthwhile?

Bauexperte schrieb:
I don’t know how you arrive at minus 10 square meters; in my calculation, a 6 cm difference results in 2.40 square meters per floor (in your example); so just under 5.00 square meters for the entire house

I had stated my assumptions before my calculation: 42 cm monolithic versus 17.5 cm brick + 16 cm EPS.

Bauexperte schrieb:
It "could" be that the increased insulation is required to comply with the 2016 Energy Saving Ordinance if you stick with gas as the heat source.

Come on, Bauexperte – it’s great that you help people here, but did you read what I wrote: insulation IS mandatory for gas and the 2016 Energy Saving Ordinance. The question was how much additional energy it saves.

andimann schrieb:
If I read your details again, you have already given the answer yourself regarding which heating system you should choose.

First of all, thanks for your detailed reply, but I haven’t given myself the answer yet. If I calculate with 10,000 kWh, burn at least 2 stères of wood in the wood stove (which is significantly below my long-term average), I end up with 7,000 kWh. With a seasonal performance factor of 2.1 and an electricity price of $0.25 per kWh, that comes to $840. I estimated gas costs significantly lower than you did. In the end, my calculation also results in additional costs of $500 per year. On the other hand, there are additional costs of $9,500 for gas + solar + insulation + tank + etc.

Do you believe an aluminum condensing boiler lasts 20 years?
And $9,500 over 20 years with 1.5% interest amounts to over $12,500. That means I could pay significantly more for electricity for quite a long time.

And two responses: Yes, it is the 2016 Energy Saving Ordinance – the building permit / planning permission will be submitted in spring. Therefore: gas only with additional insulation (walls + roof or floor slab). And I don’t want XPS under the floor slab. I also think it will work well – but there is still a residual risk. And my house is built on it.

Musketier schrieb:
Is there no alternative to the air-to-water heat pump besides gas?

No, I want to keep the initial investment low. The house will probably be sold in 10+ years.

Best regards to all
michael

ölschlamm schrieb:
No, I want to keep the initial investment low. The house will probably be sold in 10+ years.

Could that possibly backfire later on?

ölschlamm schrieb:

No, I want to keep the initial investment low. The house will probably be sold in 10+ years.

Doesn't that contradict your other posts here?
If you first spend an additional €9,000 for gas, then the investment is not low but actually higher.
With this extra investment, you could probably already afford a geothermal drilling (if feasible in mountainous areas), which is definitely more efficient than gas and would likely be easier to sell with the house in 10 years.

Hi Ölschlamm,

ölschlamm schrieb:



First of all, thanks a lot for your detailed response, but I didn’t come up with the answer myself just now. If I calculate with 10,000 kWh, burning at least 2 ster of wood in the wood stove (which is well below my long-term average), I arrive at 7,000 kWh. With an annual performance factor of 2.1 and an electricity price of 0.25 ¢ per kWh, that’s 840 euros. I estimated the gas costs significantly lower than you did. Overall, my calculation also shows additional costs of 500 euros per year. On the other hand, additional costs of 9,500 euros for gas + solar + insulation + tank + etc. stand against this.

Do you believe an aluminum condensing boiler lasts 20 years?
And 9,500 euros over 20 years with 1.5% interest adds up to more than 12,500 euros. I could pay quite a bit more for electricity for a long time.

And two answers: Yes, it is the 2016 energy saving ordinance / regulation – the building permit / planning permission will be submitted in spring. That’s why: gas only with additional insulation (walls + roof or base slab). And I don’t want XPS under the base slab. I also think it will work well – but there remains some residual risk. And my house stands on that.

Regards to you all
Michael

I don’t know what you mean by an aluminum condensing boiler?! Modern gas condensing boilers have a stainless steel combustion chamber; you’d really have to buy very cheap junk to get aluminum here.
Will it last 20 years? No idea, but if you plan to sell the house in 10 years anyway, that might not matter to you.
I’d almost bet a crate of beer that it will last longer than a standard air-to-water heat pump under your operating conditions. And if something goes wrong, you can get a new gas boiler for 2,500–3,000 euros, while an air-to-water heat pump will cost you more.

If you choose a heat pump, you will probably have to go for a ground source probe. I can’t really judge the price comparison here.

Since you already fall under the 2016 version of the new energy saving regulation, you have an economic problem now. No matter how you look at it, you will have to throw several thousand euros out the window anyway. You can only decide in which direction you want to throw the money...

Best regards,
Andreas

Musketier schrieb:
Doesn’t that contradict all your posts here?
If you first spend an additional €9000 on gas,

That’s exactly the point – I want to avoid the €9500 cost if possible. Unless that would be completely uneconomical nonsense.

The drilling is not allowed / it’s a water protection area. Ground source heat pump doesn’t add up – better to improve insulation instead.

@andimann
Viessmann still uses stainless steel. Others don’t – according to my heating engineer. The Rotex system I considered has aluminum. Viessmann costs twice as much.
I’d be happy to lose that case of beer – and if I win, I’ll even share it.
But if you assume a gas condensing boiler costs around €2500-3000, then you have to consider a Panasonic air-to-water heat pump under €7000. And who knows what heat pump values will be in 10 years – maybe replacing it will pay off either way.

You calculate your solar thermal yield at 1000-1500 kWh. How many square meters do you have installed – 10 m² (110 sq ft)? Auxiliary heating? If yes, what do you do with the summer input – pool heating, laundry, or similar? Then it can be economical.
For my gas alternative, I also have 10 m² (110 sq ft) of collector included by default, but I expect at best 1500 kWh of usable yield.

andimann schrieb:
You can only choose which way to throw your money...

That’s how it is… And our environmental activists will surely come up with a cross-subsidy for the expensive grid expansion if gas prices stay low. I’ll bet a case of beer, too...

Regards
Michael

andimann schrieb:
Hi Ölschlamm,

Since you already fall under the 2016 version of the new eco-insanity regulation, you now have a financial problem. No matter how you look at it, you will inevitably have to throw a few thousand euros out the window. You just get to choose in which direction you spend that money...

Best regards,
Andreas

Well, this whole eco-insanity regulation is really something!

Dear Ölschlamm,

No one here will be able to tell you without a detailed calculation (which takes quite some time...) roughly how much you will save with additional insulation (or to what extent you can further reduce transmission heat losses).

My KFW-70 standard house has 135 sqm (1450 sq ft) of usable space and is heated with a gas condensing boiler plus a solar thermal system (for domestic hot water). The annual gas heating consumption is about 6,500 kWh/year, with meter fees this results in monthly costs of around 50 euros. This is just for reference.

The cost of the gas connection varies depending on the municipality. Roughly, I estimate it between 1,500 and 3,000 euros. An air-to-water heat pump costs more but obviously does not require a gas connection. So overall, you get to a similar cost range as with the gas condensing boiler. The air-to-water heat pump should achieve a seasonal performance factor of about 2.5, otherwise you risk having slightly higher costs.

In general, houses like these are running at around 45-65 euros per month. You can insulate, do all sorts of things, perhaps save about 10 or 20 euros per month. You have to weigh the required investment and decide for yourself:
- Is it worth it to me?
- Does it really bring me benefits?
- Am I investing for ecological reasons or purely optimizing my own business case?

Best wishes and good luck in making your decision.

By the way: From very reliable sources I know that a gas condensing boiler is designed for a service life of about 12 years. This applies even to the one from that manufacturer starting with V... Some last longer, others shorter, partly depending on user handling, but that’s another story. The relevant internal parts at critical points must be stainless steel; otherwise, such units wouldn’t last long at all. The ones from V are definitely good. Yes. But others are good too, often slightly cheaper. My boiler from another brand costs around 1,800 euros bare. After 12-15 years it is allowed to break down, and I just replace it, since the mounting layout is usually compatible with the follow-up model.

The yield of your collector, unless you have vacuum tube flat plate collectors, is overly optimistic. I would estimate about 1,000 kWh, but much of that energy is lost during summer when it’s not needed, and in winter you hardly get anything.

Thorsten