ᐅ Separate contracting for windows and roller shutters – the hardware manufacturer is blocking progress!
Created on: 16 Dec 2022 00:02
D
DominicHannove
We are building with a local general contractor (GC).
When signing the contract with the GC (it had to be done quickly on our side due to the bank’s requirements), we secured a contractual agreement allowing us to remove individual trades from the contract or add items without additional costs up until the building permit / planning permission submission.
Over the past few weeks, we have used this time to obtain comparative quotes.
The only trade we would like to remove are the overpriced electric aluminum roller shutters (9 units for almost €15,000). Since we cannot / are not allowed to remove them individually, we would have to cancel the entire package (windows, roller shutters, exterior doors, and exterior window sills).
The refund for this would be:
€16,600 base price for windows and doors
+ €2,650 (foil-coated windows)
+ €480 (mullion profiles)
+ €2,020 (side entrance door)
+ €8,660 (roller shutter installation)
+ €4,070 (electric roller shutter drives)
+ €2,580 (aluminum roller shutters)
= total reimbursement of €37,060
Based on the scaled plans, we obtained comparative offers and received a very good quote:
Price for everything around €34,000 (with the following added benefits compared to the GC’s offer:
- 14/14 roller shutters instead of 9/14 roller shutters,
- sliding lift-and-slide door instead of standard patio doors,
- app control for the roller shutters instead of no app control.
Everything else is included.
However, these would be Salamander windows (separate contract) instead of Rehau windows (GC). Since the U-value is at least equivalent and I can’t find anything negative about these windows, we don’t mind.
Now our problem:
Our GC, despite multiple requests, will not provide a detailed specification (bill of quantities) for the windows and also refuses to give us the exact dimensions.
Their explanation is that the GC sends the building permit / planning permission plans to the trades (window manufacturers), who then submit their quotes. All openings are dimensioned in these plans. The process wouldn’t be changed just for our request.
However, we must decide whether or not to award the window contract separately before the building permit / planning permission submission.
Is this procedure normal?
Another concern for us is that the GC says that we could potentially lose the construction time guarantee and fixed price guarantee if our own work causes delays in the construction schedule, which is somewhat understandable.
It’s now December, and construction is planned to start in March 2023 (the building permit / planning permission should presumably be submitted this year).
Is there definitely enough time for the window manufacturer to have the windows ready on time to avoid delays?
What are typical delivery times?
Does anyone have experience with this?
Small additional question:
We have a quote for a photovoltaic system. The supplier advises us to remove the photovoltaic preparation from the GC’s contract because it is very expensive at about €1,900. They recommend approaching the construction workers directly to see if they can install an empty conduit for a few euros. They also said that nowadays, new builds usually have an enlarged electrical panel / breaker box, or you should talk directly to the electrician if needed.
The photovoltaic supplier would, in any case, always find a way to get the cables into the utility room and connect the system.
What do you think?
I would appreciate any help!
When signing the contract with the GC (it had to be done quickly on our side due to the bank’s requirements), we secured a contractual agreement allowing us to remove individual trades from the contract or add items without additional costs up until the building permit / planning permission submission.
Over the past few weeks, we have used this time to obtain comparative quotes.
The only trade we would like to remove are the overpriced electric aluminum roller shutters (9 units for almost €15,000). Since we cannot / are not allowed to remove them individually, we would have to cancel the entire package (windows, roller shutters, exterior doors, and exterior window sills).
The refund for this would be:
€16,600 base price for windows and doors
+ €2,650 (foil-coated windows)
+ €480 (mullion profiles)
+ €2,020 (side entrance door)
+ €8,660 (roller shutter installation)
+ €4,070 (electric roller shutter drives)
+ €2,580 (aluminum roller shutters)
= total reimbursement of €37,060
Based on the scaled plans, we obtained comparative offers and received a very good quote:
Price for everything around €34,000 (with the following added benefits compared to the GC’s offer:
- 14/14 roller shutters instead of 9/14 roller shutters,
- sliding lift-and-slide door instead of standard patio doors,
- app control for the roller shutters instead of no app control.
Everything else is included.
However, these would be Salamander windows (separate contract) instead of Rehau windows (GC). Since the U-value is at least equivalent and I can’t find anything negative about these windows, we don’t mind.
Now our problem:
Our GC, despite multiple requests, will not provide a detailed specification (bill of quantities) for the windows and also refuses to give us the exact dimensions.
Their explanation is that the GC sends the building permit / planning permission plans to the trades (window manufacturers), who then submit their quotes. All openings are dimensioned in these plans. The process wouldn’t be changed just for our request.
However, we must decide whether or not to award the window contract separately before the building permit / planning permission submission.
Is this procedure normal?
Another concern for us is that the GC says that we could potentially lose the construction time guarantee and fixed price guarantee if our own work causes delays in the construction schedule, which is somewhat understandable.
It’s now December, and construction is planned to start in March 2023 (the building permit / planning permission should presumably be submitted this year).
Is there definitely enough time for the window manufacturer to have the windows ready on time to avoid delays?
What are typical delivery times?
Does anyone have experience with this?
Small additional question:
We have a quote for a photovoltaic system. The supplier advises us to remove the photovoltaic preparation from the GC’s contract because it is very expensive at about €1,900. They recommend approaching the construction workers directly to see if they can install an empty conduit for a few euros. They also said that nowadays, new builds usually have an enlarged electrical panel / breaker box, or you should talk directly to the electrician if needed.
The photovoltaic supplier would, in any case, always find a way to get the cables into the utility room and connect the system.
What do you think?
I would appreciate any help!
W
WilderSueden16 Dec 2022 09:2042.5
Here, for example, at the kitchen window. Unfortunately, I only have a good picture from above for the exterior. But it’s like this everywhere, including the floor-to-ceiling windows.
Here, for example, at the kitchen window. Unfortunately, I only have a good picture from above for the exterior. But it’s like this everywhere, including the floor-to-ceiling windows.
T
Torti2022neu16 Dec 2022 10:02How is the building constructed? Monolithic, with external thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS), timber frame construction, or facing brick? This partly determines how the windows are installed and when they are ordered. Under normal delivery times, windows for cavity wall construction were only ordered after the facing brick was installed.
The profile manufacturers don’t matter—both are good. Whether the profiles are comparable is another question, which cannot be assessed here (e.g., AD or MD, profile thickness, chambers). There is also the question of whether the resistance classes are comparable.
Only after this can you decide whether it makes sense to remove the windows from the general contractor (GC) contract—besides the issues of a) schedule, b) warranty, c) fit, and d) availability of the windows.
Last year, I also waited up to half a year for windows; most recently, despite a special color, it was only six weeks.
Regarding your question:
"Our GC refuses to prepare a detailed scope of work for the windows despite multiple requests and also does not want to give us the exact measurements. Reason: the GC sends the building permit / planning permission drawings to the craftsmen (window manufacturer), who then submit their offers. All openings are dimensioned in the building permit drawings. They won’t change their usual procedure."
You have to accept that. Either do it their way or don’t do it at all. Then just hope the measurements fit—which a reasonable shell contractor should be able to manage.
The profile manufacturers don’t matter—both are good. Whether the profiles are comparable is another question, which cannot be assessed here (e.g., AD or MD, profile thickness, chambers). There is also the question of whether the resistance classes are comparable.
Only after this can you decide whether it makes sense to remove the windows from the general contractor (GC) contract—besides the issues of a) schedule, b) warranty, c) fit, and d) availability of the windows.
Last year, I also waited up to half a year for windows; most recently, despite a special color, it was only six weeks.
Regarding your question:
"Our GC refuses to prepare a detailed scope of work for the windows despite multiple requests and also does not want to give us the exact measurements. Reason: the GC sends the building permit / planning permission drawings to the craftsmen (window manufacturer), who then submit their offers. All openings are dimensioned in the building permit drawings. They won’t change their usual procedure."
You have to accept that. Either do it their way or don’t do it at all. Then just hope the measurements fit—which a reasonable shell contractor should be able to manage.
DominicHannove schrieb:
The only trade we would like to remove are the overpriced electric aluminum roller shutters (9 units for nearly 15,000€). Since we cannot/do not want to remove them individually, we would have to remove the entire package (windows, shutters, exterior doors, and exterior window sills).
The refund for this would be: 16,600€ base price for windows and doors + 2,650€ (foiled windows) + 480€ (mullion profiles) + 2,020€ (secondary entrance door) + 8,660€ (installation of shutters) + 4,070€ (electric roller shutter drives) + 2,580€ (aluminum shutters) = total compensation of 37,060€ Overall, based on your thread history, I get the impression that you are trying to take the royal road straight to a disaster: building with a general contractor (GC), but upgrading their scope of work description from a Jetta to a Phaeton level—already half a guaranteed catastrophe on its own—and then optionally replacing individual suppliers and tradespeople on top of that. This completely undermines any built-in safeguards. This approach is really only taken by someone who wants to prove that everyone can be their own worst enemy if they just consider themselves a savvy buyer. Moreover, you seem to have overlooked the fact that it is widely stated here that “cheap” GCs make their big profits through extras.
DominicHannove schrieb:
Based on the scale plans, we have obtained comparison quotes and received a very good offer:
Price for everything around 34,000€ (with the following added value compared to the GC’s offer:
- 14 out of 14 roller shutters instead of 9 out of 14,
- with a lift-and-slide door instead of standard patio doors,
- with app control for the shutters instead of no app control.
[...] However, these would be Salamander windows (separate contract) instead of Rehau (GC). “14 out of 14 instead of 9 out of 14 roller shutters” presumably means that all 14 elements are now equipped with shutters instead of only 9, right? And in https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/grundrissverbesserung-tipps-koennt-ihr-helfen.44318/ you have a patio door element roughly 263cm (104 inches) wide in total. Here, you have already done yourself a bit of a disservice by changing the three-part mullion element to a lift-and-slide door (which should also be aluminum). I would say Salamander or Rehau are basically equivalent; if you want colored PVC, as I’ve said several times before, Gealan is best due to co-extrusion.
DominicHannove schrieb:
Now our problem: Our GC refuses to provide a specification sheet for the windows even after repeated requests and does not want to give us the exact dimensions. Tolentino schrieb:
There should be approved shop drawings or at least the design drawings clearly marked as such. The dimensions of window and door openings must then be executed within standard tolerances. The GC has to guarantee this to you; otherwise, forget about it. Exactly. As I have mentioned before, I used to work as a window manufacturer (and later dealer), and except for heritage buildings, I have never seen detailed drawings for windows—not even with lawyers or senior academic staff. As @Tolentino already says, windows are ordered based on measured dimensions (and only secondarily on drawings with guaranteed tolerances). And as the expert just pointed out, you can tell a person’s "mindset" just by their approach to overlap dimensions on the first three courses of bricks. So here, theoretically, you could early on detect whether the window installer might need to adjust or bring special tools like a Hilti.
Furthermore, I don’t actually understand your whole problem: swapping electric for manual roller shutter shafts is quite straightforward. Wanting to remove the entire “roller shutter trade” because of that borders between foolishness and recklessness!
My advice is therefore: keep the scope of offer as the original GC and simply consider whether the windows should be better (by the GC!) Gealan or “at worst” remain white. The few cables needed to retrofit electrification can’t cost much. The control system (actuators and sensors!) is implemented in the building automation system (which the GC won’t be involved with).
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
In his unmistakable way, @11ant wanted to make it clear to you: definitely avoid this. It will end in a disaster, including financial ruin! PERIOD
Especially when it comes to openings like windows and doors, numerous trades need to be involved to coordinate the interfaces. Bricklayers or carpenters, plasterers, brick cladding, window sills, blower door test or airtightness in general, installation position top, bottom, sides, and also in depth. Scaffolding—when, where, and for how long? Crane for windows on the upper floor or attic?
We built with individual contracts and acted simultaneously as building inspectors and site managers (whew, lucky it turned out well), so I know this firsthand. We were also fortunate to receive laminated timber exterior walls with a tolerance of ±10mm (±0.4 inches), which made pre-ordering the windows possible. However, coordinating the points mentioned above is definitely a professional and time-consuming challenge that is NEVER manageable for laypersons. And for your general contractor, it is legitimate and advisable not to get involved in this.
Especially when it comes to openings like windows and doors, numerous trades need to be involved to coordinate the interfaces. Bricklayers or carpenters, plasterers, brick cladding, window sills, blower door test or airtightness in general, installation position top, bottom, sides, and also in depth. Scaffolding—when, where, and for how long? Crane for windows on the upper floor or attic?
We built with individual contracts and acted simultaneously as building inspectors and site managers (whew, lucky it turned out well), so I know this firsthand. We were also fortunate to receive laminated timber exterior walls with a tolerance of ±10mm (±0.4 inches), which made pre-ordering the windows possible. However, coordinating the points mentioned above is definitely a professional and time-consuming challenge that is NEVER manageable for laypersons. And for your general contractor, it is legitimate and advisable not to get involved in this.
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