ᐅ Repair a heat pump for €5,000–7,500 or replace it with a new one?
Created on: 16 Feb 2024 16:32
J
jx7
Hello dear forum members,
we are facing the decision of "repair" or "new heat pump" and would appreciate your opinions.
Our 7.5-year-old heat pump has broken down after 68,000 starts in 7.5 years (25 starts per day).
Problem with the heat pump:
- The cause of the frequent cycling is unclear. (Most individual room valves are fully open.)
- The only available customer service is the German distributor (400 km (250 miles) away)
- The heat pump is oversized at 3-12 kW; 7-8 kW would be sufficient according to calculations
- The hot water tank is somewhat small at 165 liters (44 gallons) for 5 people
Possible repair appointment:
- Compressor replacement €5,000 (including installation)
- Fault diagnosis (dirt trap in the heating circuit/brine circuit?, temperature sensors?, bypass valve?)
- Possible control system optimization (improving speed regulation to enable lower speeds? possible speed limit? night setback? high hysteresis? possible blocking times?)
- Optional retrofit of a buffer tank (€2,000 plus installation, no combination buffer possible)
- Risk that the frequent cycling persists afterwards
Alternatively, we could install a new heat pump:
- Change to a larger manufacturer with a better service network
- Several weeks without hot water (the current electric heater only heats the water to 32°C (90°F)) until new installation
- New 5-year warranty
- Unknown costs, probably very expensive
(1) What do you think a new heat pump including installation would cost?
(2) How long do you think the installation would take?
(3) What are your thoughts on the repair vs. replace decision?
Additional data:
Location: Budenheim near Mainz
Current broken heat pump: Ecoforest geothermal heat pump (Model C3 3-12 kW HTR EH), modulating 3-12 kW, connected to underfloor heating and two 100-meter (330 feet) boreholes. Hot water tank 165 liters (44 gallons).
It was probably oversized at the time. The calculated optimal size is 7-8 kW.
The compressor failed after 68,000 starts in 7.5 years (25 starts per day). Two neighbors have the same heat pump in similar homes (same construction company) with 5 starts per day. Customer service at Ecoforest is poor.
The heat pump’s annual balance shows:
Heating 12,740 kWh
Cooling 1,850 kWh
Electricity 3,180 kWh
Annual performance factor (COP): 4.6
Additional data:
Energy standard: nearly KfW-55
Annual primary energy demand Qp according to energy-saving regulations: 34.5 kWh/(m²a)
Specific transmission heat loss H’T: 0.305 W/(m² K)
Heated building volume 920 m³ (32,480 ft³)
Living area: 220 m² (2,370 ft²)
Heated living area: 170 m² (1,830 ft²)
Household: 5 persons
Controlled mechanical ventilation installed
9.9 kW peak photovoltaic system installed
Desired heat pump:
- Modulating heat pump
- Capacity smaller than current (3-12 kW)
- Larger hot water tank than current (165 liters (44 gallons))
- Passive cooling function
- Electric backup heater for emergency operation
- Connection for 10,000-liter (2,600 gallons) basement pool (max 31°C (88°F)) possible (currently connected via low-temperature heat exchanger to heat pump)
we are facing the decision of "repair" or "new heat pump" and would appreciate your opinions.
Our 7.5-year-old heat pump has broken down after 68,000 starts in 7.5 years (25 starts per day).
Problem with the heat pump:
- The cause of the frequent cycling is unclear. (Most individual room valves are fully open.)
- The only available customer service is the German distributor (400 km (250 miles) away)
- The heat pump is oversized at 3-12 kW; 7-8 kW would be sufficient according to calculations
- The hot water tank is somewhat small at 165 liters (44 gallons) for 5 people
Possible repair appointment:
- Compressor replacement €5,000 (including installation)
- Fault diagnosis (dirt trap in the heating circuit/brine circuit?, temperature sensors?, bypass valve?)
- Possible control system optimization (improving speed regulation to enable lower speeds? possible speed limit? night setback? high hysteresis? possible blocking times?)
- Optional retrofit of a buffer tank (€2,000 plus installation, no combination buffer possible)
- Risk that the frequent cycling persists afterwards
Alternatively, we could install a new heat pump:
- Change to a larger manufacturer with a better service network
- Several weeks without hot water (the current electric heater only heats the water to 32°C (90°F)) until new installation
- New 5-year warranty
- Unknown costs, probably very expensive
(1) What do you think a new heat pump including installation would cost?
(2) How long do you think the installation would take?
(3) What are your thoughts on the repair vs. replace decision?
Additional data:
Location: Budenheim near Mainz
Current broken heat pump: Ecoforest geothermal heat pump (Model C3 3-12 kW HTR EH), modulating 3-12 kW, connected to underfloor heating and two 100-meter (330 feet) boreholes. Hot water tank 165 liters (44 gallons).
It was probably oversized at the time. The calculated optimal size is 7-8 kW.
The compressor failed after 68,000 starts in 7.5 years (25 starts per day). Two neighbors have the same heat pump in similar homes (same construction company) with 5 starts per day. Customer service at Ecoforest is poor.
The heat pump’s annual balance shows:
Heating 12,740 kWh
Cooling 1,850 kWh
Electricity 3,180 kWh
Annual performance factor (COP): 4.6
Additional data:
Energy standard: nearly KfW-55
Annual primary energy demand Qp according to energy-saving regulations: 34.5 kWh/(m²a)
Specific transmission heat loss H’T: 0.305 W/(m² K)
Heated building volume 920 m³ (32,480 ft³)
Living area: 220 m² (2,370 ft²)
Heated living area: 170 m² (1,830 ft²)
Household: 5 persons
Controlled mechanical ventilation installed
9.9 kW peak photovoltaic system installed
Desired heat pump:
- Modulating heat pump
- Capacity smaller than current (3-12 kW)
- Larger hot water tank than current (165 liters (44 gallons))
- Passive cooling function
- Electric backup heater for emergency operation
- Connection for 10,000-liter (2,600 gallons) basement pool (max 31°C (88°F)) possible (currently connected via low-temperature heat exchanger to heat pump)
N
nordanney202417 Feb 2024 21:56jx7 schrieb:
I have received an initial quote for installing a new heat pump: 36,000 € OMG – what does the quote include?
nordanney2024 schrieb:
OMG – what does the offer look like?A Viessmann Vitocal 200 G 201.B08 was offered for 16,600 € (approximately $18,000). This heat pump can be purchased online for 9,500 € (about $10,300).
Additionally, the quote included 104 labor hours valued at 9,000 € (around $9,750).
An optional passive cooling system was offered for an extra 6,300 € (about $6,800).
nordanney2024 schrieb:
OMG – what does the offer look like?A heat pump package was offered for 16,600 € (approximately $18,000):
Vitocal 200-G, model BWC 201.B08 (online price 9,500 € / $10,300)
Vitocell domestic hot water storage tank 100-V CVWC 300 liters (300L) (online price 2,100 € / $2,300)
Vitocell heating water storage tank 100-E MSCA 50 liters (50L) (online price 800 € / $870)
Total online price: 12,400 € (about $13,500)
However, the heat pump offered does not have an inverter, so it is not modulating. I specifically requested an inverter. Without it is not an option for us. The appropriate inverter model would be the Vitocal 333-G (lowest online price 9,800 € / $10,600), which already includes the domestic hot water storage tank.
In addition, the offer included 104 labor hours valued at 9,000 € (approximately $9,750).
An optional passive cooling system was offered for an additional 6,300 € (about $6,800).
A
Allthewayup18 Feb 2024 12:52As far as I know, for "passive cooling," only one dew point sensor is necessary, or one per floor at most. What exactly is supposed to cost €6,300?
Personally, I can't shake the feeling that under the guise of political confusion, the uninformed end customer is being ruthlessly overcharged. Honestly, I would rather look for someone employed in the HVAC trade through an ad, offer them a fair hourly wage, buy the components online, and have them assemble it. That would probably save a five-figure amount.
Personally, I can't shake the feeling that under the guise of political confusion, the uninformed end customer is being ruthlessly overcharged. Honestly, I would rather look for someone employed in the HVAC trade through an ad, offer them a fair hourly wage, buy the components online, and have them assemble it. That would probably save a five-figure amount.
N
nordanney18 Feb 2024 12:55jx7 schrieb:
An offer was made for a heat pump package costing €16,600 (about $18,000 US):
Vitocal 200-G, type BWC 201.B08 (online price €9,500 (about $10,300 US))
Vitocell domestic hot water storage tank 100-V CVWC 300L (online price €2,100 (about $2,300 US))
Vitocell heating water storage tank 100-E MSCA 50L (online price €800 (about $870 US)) Not what you expected or wanted. It’s understandable that the heating engineer wants to make a profit. What I find unnecessary/problematic:
- Not modulating
- Heating water storage tank
Price-wise, a surcharge of around 30% over online prices (the heating engineer might include small parts – which would somewhat justify it – and delivery as well).
jx7 schrieb:
In addition, the offer included 104 labor hours valued at €9,000 (about $9,800 US). I just checked the user manual. Ten hours of actual work and 104 hours of coffee and cigarette breaks.
jx7 schrieb:
Optionally, passive cooling was offered for an additional €6,300 (about $6,900 US). I seriously wonder what that is supposed to mean at that price.
Conclusion: Defensive offer.
N
nordanney18 Feb 2024 13:02Allthewayup schrieb:
If you employ an HVAC technician and offer them a good hourly wage, you can buy the components online and have them assemble it. This probably still saves a five-figure amount. You speak right from my heart – but you were faster with your message.
Just as an example from the marketplace: an existing Panasonic system (outdoor + indoor unit including a 185-liter (49-gallon) domestic hot water tank), complete unit and installation (including removal of the old gas heating system) for 19,500 euros. So it can be done differently – and here is an example of a complete heating system replacement, not just swapping a unit.
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