Dear community,
we are currently facing a situation that is also affecting our health. Therefore, I am seeking advice, help, and tips here.
Here is what happened. A relative who owned more than half of a house and the land has passed away. I am one of the heirs. The heirs are in agreement among themselves, and no one wants to take advantage of the others. In that respect, everything is fine.
However, the party that owns the other part of the house and land (less than half) is not an heir but, like the deceased, is registered in the land registry. The apartment that belongs to this person has been vacant and unrented for many years. The other apartment is occupied by the deceased’s wife. It is a 100-year-old, unrenovated two-family house. The plot is about 1000sqm (10,764 sq ft). There are no encumbrances such as loans or anything similar. The house fully belongs to both living parties.
There was an oral agreement between the deceased and another person who is entitled to inherit the unoccupied apartment but does not live there, that a payment would be made so that the deceased’s share, i.e., the heirs’ share, would belong entirely to them. A significant amount of money was transferred from the deceased to the person entitled to inherit the vacant apartment. However, the people who own the vacant apartment are still alive, so the inheritance event has not yet occurred.
We, the heirs of the occupied apartment, have asked the other party to gift us the remaining share since the payment for the outstanding inheritance was already made. However, this party now wants additional money to complete the “gift.” This money is not available and was not agreed upon. Please refrain from comments such as “Why isn’t this in writing?” This was not within my power to arrange. The deceased trusted the rest of the family wrongly.
There is also no appraisal for the house. The other part of the family exaggerates the value excessively. Should we have the house forcibly appraised? According to the land valuation unit value, the plot is worth around 350,000€ (approximately 370,000 USD). The house is about 220sqm (2,368 sq ft).
We had a construction company inspect the house, and they basically said it needs a complete renovation. The roof needs to be raised, the roof insulation is damp, the floor between living levels is hollow and thus uninsulated, the roof has 20-year-old bitumen shingles, there are cracks in the walls, the electrical system needs to be completely replaced, and all heating pipes must be renewed, as well as 50% of the windows. My husband and I, who are supposed to take over the house on the deceased’s wish (no will), have no construction skills and are time-constrained due to work and several children in daycare age. The construction company estimates the renovation/modernization cost at around 250,000€ (approximately 265,000 USD) plus or minus.
The amount now requested by the person who has already been paid, combined with the money they have already received and the expected construction costs, far exceeds our borrowing capacity.
Additionally, there is a partition agreement between the two apartment owners. This only specifies the division of living spaces and not the division of the land. According to our lawyer, each square meter belongs jointly to both parties. Therefore, only the apartments can be sold separately, and a usage agreement would have to be made for the garden. Nothing can be done in the garden without the other party’s permission.
Has anyone experienced a similar situation or can offer any advice?
I am grateful for any constructive contributions.
As mentioned, this situation is taking a toll on our health, and a solution is urgently needed.
Thank you very much, and have a nice evening.
we are currently facing a situation that is also affecting our health. Therefore, I am seeking advice, help, and tips here.
Here is what happened. A relative who owned more than half of a house and the land has passed away. I am one of the heirs. The heirs are in agreement among themselves, and no one wants to take advantage of the others. In that respect, everything is fine.
However, the party that owns the other part of the house and land (less than half) is not an heir but, like the deceased, is registered in the land registry. The apartment that belongs to this person has been vacant and unrented for many years. The other apartment is occupied by the deceased’s wife. It is a 100-year-old, unrenovated two-family house. The plot is about 1000sqm (10,764 sq ft). There are no encumbrances such as loans or anything similar. The house fully belongs to both living parties.
There was an oral agreement between the deceased and another person who is entitled to inherit the unoccupied apartment but does not live there, that a payment would be made so that the deceased’s share, i.e., the heirs’ share, would belong entirely to them. A significant amount of money was transferred from the deceased to the person entitled to inherit the vacant apartment. However, the people who own the vacant apartment are still alive, so the inheritance event has not yet occurred.
We, the heirs of the occupied apartment, have asked the other party to gift us the remaining share since the payment for the outstanding inheritance was already made. However, this party now wants additional money to complete the “gift.” This money is not available and was not agreed upon. Please refrain from comments such as “Why isn’t this in writing?” This was not within my power to arrange. The deceased trusted the rest of the family wrongly.
There is also no appraisal for the house. The other part of the family exaggerates the value excessively. Should we have the house forcibly appraised? According to the land valuation unit value, the plot is worth around 350,000€ (approximately 370,000 USD). The house is about 220sqm (2,368 sq ft).
We had a construction company inspect the house, and they basically said it needs a complete renovation. The roof needs to be raised, the roof insulation is damp, the floor between living levels is hollow and thus uninsulated, the roof has 20-year-old bitumen shingles, there are cracks in the walls, the electrical system needs to be completely replaced, and all heating pipes must be renewed, as well as 50% of the windows. My husband and I, who are supposed to take over the house on the deceased’s wish (no will), have no construction skills and are time-constrained due to work and several children in daycare age. The construction company estimates the renovation/modernization cost at around 250,000€ (approximately 265,000 USD) plus or minus.
The amount now requested by the person who has already been paid, combined with the money they have already received and the expected construction costs, far exceeds our borrowing capacity.
Additionally, there is a partition agreement between the two apartment owners. This only specifies the division of living spaces and not the division of the land. According to our lawyer, each square meter belongs jointly to both parties. Therefore, only the apartments can be sold separately, and a usage agreement would have to be made for the garden. Nothing can be done in the garden without the other party’s permission.
Has anyone experienced a similar situation or can offer any advice?
I am grateful for any constructive contributions.
As mentioned, this situation is taking a toll on our health, and a solution is urgently needed.
Thank you very much, and have a nice evening.
D
Dresdnerin6 Oct 2024 01:44@ypg
Hello,
I wanted to message you privately. However, as a new member with only one post, I am unable to do so.
But thank you anyway for sharing your opinion.
Your assumptions regarding the situation are not correct.
Hello,
I wanted to message you privately. However, as a new member with only one post, I am unable to do so.
But thank you anyway for sharing your opinion.
Your assumptions regarding the situation are not correct.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
Your assumptions about the situation are not correct as stated... That may be. But that’s how it comes across.
However, it doesn’t matter: only facts count, not your opinions or who might receive what from person C.
Get a property manager!
It is no coincidence that real estate contracts are made through a notary. Agreements or even gifts without written proof have, to my knowledge, no legally binding value. The money is lost. The fact that A was aware of his half-hearted and amateurish approach is evident in that it haunted him until his dying day. It might still be possible to convince a judge about a last will made on a deathbed, provided there are enough witnesses. However, I consider this unlikely.
It also remains unclear why A1 bears all the costs. Again, this seems like another half-hearted approach. B is a co-owner and therefore responsible, if I am reading this correctly.
What exactly should the advice here be other than to hire a lawyer who can guide you through the next steps to ensure a proper division and that each party sells their share? Since you do not have the funds for renovation or payout, it is likely that a third party, currently not involved, will benefit from the property.
It also remains unclear why A1 bears all the costs. Again, this seems like another half-hearted approach. B is a co-owner and therefore responsible, if I am reading this correctly.
What exactly should the advice here be other than to hire a lawyer who can guide you through the next steps to ensure a proper division and that each party sells their share? Since you do not have the funds for renovation or payout, it is likely that a third party, currently not involved, will benefit from the property.
N
nordanney6 Oct 2024 08:55Dresdnerin schrieb:
I had requested in my post not to make judgments. You have no idea what we have gone through, and comments like "I wish I could be as clueless as that" are unnecessary. You don’t know the background or anything. I asked for constructive help. But you did not write constructively.
And since no one really understands the text – the background would have been helpful – the only responses are comments like mine. Others saw it the same way, as you read.
That aside, I presented three constructive options related to the specific situation. You’re welcome.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
However, you are right about the confusion. It is also difficult to explain, but I’ll try like this:
- Person A passes away (no will)
- leaves heirs A1, A2 (me) and A3
- for the property with the land registry, Person A and Person B are listed as owners
- A owns more than half
- Person C and Person A would inherit 50/50% in case of Person B’s death
- A2 and A3 now take the place of A in the legal inheritance line, since A has died
- therefore, in the potential case of B’s death (no will), C inherits 50% and A2 and A3 each 25% Thanks. Now it’s clearer.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- part of the property was gifted by Person B to Person A about 20 years ago Completely irrelevant.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- Person C wants to be paid by Person A for their inheritance share from Person B so that Person A (or now the surviving heirs) own everything
- Person C lives far from the property and has no interest in it
- Person C receives the agreed sum from A, Person B is informed
- there is no written proof of this, only a bank statement showing the payment Also irrelevant.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- A1, A2 and A3 ask B to initiate the gift; B also wants to do this Then the solution is simple. B just goes to the notary – C does not need to concern themselves.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- however, C vetoes and demands the same amount of money again as was already paid C is not involved and cannot formally veto.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
Person B agrees but wants to gift only after the additional amount has been paid That makes B the only problem.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- if A1, A2 and A3 do not pay C again, B wants to sell their share of the property Let them do that. If you all are joint owners of the property, an undivided share is theoretically sellable but practically not. There is no one who would buy such a share. At least that’s what I’ve seen in over 30 years of experience. B will likely die before they can sell their share.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- B’s residential unit has been empty for over 10 years, not lived in or rented out
- B does not contribute to any costs or maintenance/repairs of the property It will be interesting when B receives the first letter from a lawyer. That’s what I meant by “applying pressure.”
Dresdnerin schrieb:
- B is old and ill and wants to get money for C, who has large debts Tell them that the situation has changed with A’s death. Now bills will come through lawyers. And if repairs are needed, B will be held financially responsible. But they can avoid the hassle if they act as agreed.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
In number 5, you write that the amount of a payout can be influenced by a well-chosen expert appraiser for your own purposes. How is that possible? Doesn’t every appraiser produce the same report? That shows you’re a layperson. Formally, all appraisers produce comparable reports. But since valuation guidelines allow a lot of leeway, the final value at the bottom can vary greatly. Whether an “old wreck” is worth 500,000 or only 50,000 depends on the appraiser and, ultimately, on the one who commissions it. One appraiser might say “the vacant apartment can be rented at any time,” another says “this is structural vacancy – renting is impossible.” One might say “repairs are needed – estimated cost 175,000,” the other might say “for economic reasons, renovation costed at 350,000 is not justified, so I value the property only at land value minus demolition costs.” Both are perfectly correct. These are only estimates and personal opinions, covered by the leeway appraisers have.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
Yes, and with A’s death, all other parties have moved out of the house. The wife (A1) can’t maintain a 220sqm (2,370 sq ft) house without payments from B. B currently pays nothing and the wife of A carries all the burdens. Or rather now all heirs. B and C want money; B is old and ill, and C has large debts. So A1, A2, and A3 are the family’s sacrificial lambs. Especially since A3 is only in their early 20s and too young to make or understand such decisions. Once again: send bills to B as well. Threaten a forced partition sale. Find tenants for both apartments and insist through a lawyer on lease contract signatures – sue if necessary. Etc.
Make it easy for them to decide to stick to the agreements.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
In an initial consultation with a lawyer, we were advised not to wait for B’s inheritance. That was actually my idea because A2 and A3 would then inherit further shares of the house. But the lawyer said C could persuade B to make a will to the disadvantage of A2 and A3. Because the compulsory portion left to us would then be extremely small. Yes, but the compulsory portion must be paid out in cash. You would not inherit part of the property but only receive cash. Can C afford that with their debts? Because a mortgage on the property will only be granted if all owners agree.
I would, in coordination with the lawyer, use the “make life miserable for B” tactic. Also commission an appraisal in coordination with B. And yes, I would apply for a forced partition sale. Then it gets serious – and the pressure very high. The sale can – as long as B has not joined (it is auctioned anyway before) – be cancelled by you at any time, even during the auction when bids come in.
H
hanghaus20236 Oct 2024 13:44Dresdnerin schrieb:
@ypg
Your assumptions regarding the situation are not correct….Then how exactly? I’m asking you.
Dresdnerin schrieb:
Part of it has been a shell structure for 30 years.In a hundred-year-old house? — the number of uncertainties is not getting any smaller. ypg schrieb:
Why, there is one after all!No, see: Dresdnerin schrieb:
The house fully belongs to both residential parties.An agreement on undivided shares is not a condominium declaration. A condominium declaration provides a detailed division of the property into common and exclusive-use areas, along with a declaration of separability, etc., in order to create the corresponding sub-entries in the land register. Dresdnerin schrieb:
We don’t want a forced sale division, nor a partial sale, and we don’t want nothing to happen either because the house is currently completely empty and its potential is being wasted. Then you might as well sell everything.A forced sale division does not auction a part, but the entire house, so that the proceeds can be distributed. Often, a co-owner is also a bidder (to continue living there). This tool is used when the co-owners have failed to agree on a price outside court, and one of them can no longer endure or accept this stalemate. This procedure is basically outlined in the Bible (praised there as the Wisdom of Solomon). nordanney schrieb:
Once again. Send bills also to B. Threaten with forced sale divisions. Find tenants for both apartments and push for signing the rental agreements with the lawyer—if necessary, take legal action. And so on. Make it easy for him to decide to comply with the agreements.If necessary, legal pressure must be stronger than sympathy for the indebted B. An illness does not give B the right to make A1 through A3 suffer as well. If B is spared the burdens of expenses for the entire property, the well-meaning wish for no action here carries no weight and cannot be fulfilled.https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/