ᐅ Request for Evaluation of Heating and Ventilation Concept for a New Single-Family House
Created on: 31 Dec 2015 19:32
H
holg182
Hello everyone,
We are planning to build a detached single-family house, about 160 sqm (1,722 sq ft), on an 1100 sqm (11,840 sq ft) plot at the edge of town with a slight slope on slate soil. We are aiming for approximately a KfW 70 energy efficiency level, although with the current interest rates we are not relying on the related subsidies. Overall, our planning is going quite well, but when it comes to heating and ventilation, we are unsure if our plan really makes sense. Therefore, we appreciate your opinions on this 🙂
In general, we want to build and operate the house simply and cost-effectively, and it would be great if we could do this with a clear conscience for the environment. Our idea:
- A fairly well-insulated building envelope (see above), without it becoming a bottomless pit.
- Air-to-water heat pump
- Pellet stove in the living room
- Controlled mechanical ventilation (with heat recovery)
- Underfloor heating
The idea is that the air-to-water heat pump supplies most of the heat for the house, and the pellet stove in the living room provides extra support when it gets very cold outside. Ideally, this would happen automatically—so that the pellet stove switches on as soon as the outside temperature drops to a certain value, e.g., -3°C (27°F).
Here are a few questions for you experts:
1. Does this concept make sense as a whole?
2. Or would it be better / simpler / more cost-effective overall to use gas for purchase, operation, and maintenance?
3. Should the pellet stove in our setup be water-bearing (hydronic) or not?
4. Should the controlled mechanical ventilation system include heat recovery, or is that not necessarily required? Does a central or decentralized system make more sense here?
5. How can I find someone who can plan, recommend, offer, and install the right equipment for this setup (and not just the products that provide them with the highest commission)?
Thank you very much for your opinions—and Happy New Year in advance 🙂
We are planning to build a detached single-family house, about 160 sqm (1,722 sq ft), on an 1100 sqm (11,840 sq ft) plot at the edge of town with a slight slope on slate soil. We are aiming for approximately a KfW 70 energy efficiency level, although with the current interest rates we are not relying on the related subsidies. Overall, our planning is going quite well, but when it comes to heating and ventilation, we are unsure if our plan really makes sense. Therefore, we appreciate your opinions on this 🙂
In general, we want to build and operate the house simply and cost-effectively, and it would be great if we could do this with a clear conscience for the environment. Our idea:
- A fairly well-insulated building envelope (see above), without it becoming a bottomless pit.
- Air-to-water heat pump
- Pellet stove in the living room
- Controlled mechanical ventilation (with heat recovery)
- Underfloor heating
The idea is that the air-to-water heat pump supplies most of the heat for the house, and the pellet stove in the living room provides extra support when it gets very cold outside. Ideally, this would happen automatically—so that the pellet stove switches on as soon as the outside temperature drops to a certain value, e.g., -3°C (27°F).
Here are a few questions for you experts:
1. Does this concept make sense as a whole?
2. Or would it be better / simpler / more cost-effective overall to use gas for purchase, operation, and maintenance?
3. Should the pellet stove in our setup be water-bearing (hydronic) or not?
4. Should the controlled mechanical ventilation system include heat recovery, or is that not necessarily required? Does a central or decentralized system make more sense here?
5. How can I find someone who can plan, recommend, offer, and install the right equipment for this setup (and not just the products that provide them with the highest commission)?
Thank you very much for your opinions—and Happy New Year in advance 🙂
B
Bauexperte5 Jan 2016 16:19Sebastian79 schrieb:
And I request the deletion of all attachments, to which I hold the rights.Incorrect.Best regards, Bauexperte
Bauexperte schrieb:
I strongly and urgently advise you to stop discrediting me and putting me down personally. You have completely lost your credibility in this regard; therefore, I have no qualms about temporarily banning you from the forum.I thought that to discredit someone, you would at least have to accuse them of something negative and untrue!?
Hi Bauexperte,
I want to stay out of your dispute with Sebastian, but there is one point where I have to defend him.
Whether you want to accept it or not, heat pumps can be very loud and extremely annoying. Especially the split units. In our residential area, we have two of these. One is about 30-35 meters (approximately 98-115 feet) from our bedroom window (I believe I already mentioned this in another thread) and is so loud that you can hear it at a disturbing volume in winter with the window open. Another noisy example is just one street away; that unit rattles and clatters like an old car about to break down. Both are no older than five years, as no houses here are older than that.
Yes, it might be that they are misconfigured, poorly maintained, or sabotaged by hostile aliens. Maybe because of your job, you mostly know brand-new systems in perfect condition, which might be quiet.
But the fact is, many heat pumps are loud and drive their neighbors up the wall! There has even been serious conflict here over the "old clunker" type.
And I believe you that there are noise regulations and tests for these units. But those are probably just as flawed as noise limits for cars or motorcycles. These tests are usually done only at partial load or specific engine speeds/speeds. At full load, they can make as much noise as they want, including an open exhaust flap and so on.
If these noises don’t bother you personally, that’s great. But please accept that there are people for whom this noise environment is genuinely disturbing, even without perfect pitch. And there is a huge difference between tolerating some annoying intermittent sound during the day every 15 minutes in summer for 15 seconds and being subjected to a continuous noise during every cold spell for weeks.
I already invited you in the other thread to come by in winter and listen to the noise yourself. You have a perfect opportunity now.
Best regards,
Andreas
Bauexperte schrieb:
Sure; entirely in line with the idea that Germans usually hear what they see 😕
When you read some of the things you write with clear thinking, I simply have no words...
Just my 2 coins
I want to stay out of your dispute with Sebastian, but there is one point where I have to defend him.
Whether you want to accept it or not, heat pumps can be very loud and extremely annoying. Especially the split units. In our residential area, we have two of these. One is about 30-35 meters (approximately 98-115 feet) from our bedroom window (I believe I already mentioned this in another thread) and is so loud that you can hear it at a disturbing volume in winter with the window open. Another noisy example is just one street away; that unit rattles and clatters like an old car about to break down. Both are no older than five years, as no houses here are older than that.
Yes, it might be that they are misconfigured, poorly maintained, or sabotaged by hostile aliens. Maybe because of your job, you mostly know brand-new systems in perfect condition, which might be quiet.
But the fact is, many heat pumps are loud and drive their neighbors up the wall! There has even been serious conflict here over the "old clunker" type.
And I believe you that there are noise regulations and tests for these units. But those are probably just as flawed as noise limits for cars or motorcycles. These tests are usually done only at partial load or specific engine speeds/speeds. At full load, they can make as much noise as they want, including an open exhaust flap and so on.
If these noises don’t bother you personally, that’s great. But please accept that there are people for whom this noise environment is genuinely disturbing, even without perfect pitch. And there is a huge difference between tolerating some annoying intermittent sound during the day every 15 minutes in summer for 15 seconds and being subjected to a continuous noise during every cold spell for weeks.
I already invited you in the other thread to come by in winter and listen to the noise yourself. You have a perfect opportunity now.
Best regards,
Andreas
B
Bauexperte5 Jan 2016 19:18Good evening Andreas,
We have been selling this technology for a little over 10 years, if I’m not mistaken. The outdoor units are usually installed either at the front of the house or on the side above the garage; sometimes behind the house depending on the location of the heating system room. Since we also visit existing customers irregularly but repeatedly, surely one of them must have mentioned neighbor disputes related to air-source heat pumps; don’t you think? So I will only respond to topics based on my own experience. ;-)
I don’t know which system your neighbors have installed, but in Germany noise limits must be observed.
Currently:
In residential areas, the Technical Instructions on Noise Protection (TA Lärm) specify the following noise limit values for noise immission outside buildings:
Core areas, mixed-use areas, village areas: 60 dB(A) during the day, 45 dB(A) at night
General residential areas and small settlement areas: 55 dB(A) during the day, 40 dB(A) at night
Pure residential areas: 50 dB(A) during the day, 35 dB(A) at night
Spa areas, hospitals, nursing homes: 45 dB(A) during the day, 35 dB(A) at night
Inside buildings, even stricter limits apply to the sound level of heat pumps or air-source heat pumps: 35 dB(A) during the day, 25 dB(A) at night
This means that if your neighbor’s system exceeds the permitted decibel levels, they must make adjustments; this is usually easy to accomplish as long as the devices meet European standards. I therefore see no reasonable reason why you should not pursue this strictly if the noise level is unbearable for you. However, you will need to prove that it is too loud. But I assume you are aware of that.
Unfortunately, I know many cases where neighbors complain even before the outdoor unit is connected. And that despite ongoing improvements in noise reduction technology. That’s why I say that people often “hear” what they see, and so I argue against blanket criticism and half-hearted justifications.
Again – even the "Lada" you mentioned has limits to comply with. Not fudged, but real limits; in the worst case, judges don’t take that lightly.
I can’t see where you live on my phone; if it’s on my way, I’d gladly take you up on your offer if I’m in the area.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Bauexperte
We have been selling this technology for a little over 10 years, if I’m not mistaken. The outdoor units are usually installed either at the front of the house or on the side above the garage; sometimes behind the house depending on the location of the heating system room. Since we also visit existing customers irregularly but repeatedly, surely one of them must have mentioned neighbor disputes related to air-source heat pumps; don’t you think? So I will only respond to topics based on my own experience. ;-)
I don’t know which system your neighbors have installed, but in Germany noise limits must be observed.
Currently:
In residential areas, the Technical Instructions on Noise Protection (TA Lärm) specify the following noise limit values for noise immission outside buildings:
Core areas, mixed-use areas, village areas: 60 dB(A) during the day, 45 dB(A) at night
General residential areas and small settlement areas: 55 dB(A) during the day, 40 dB(A) at night
Pure residential areas: 50 dB(A) during the day, 35 dB(A) at night
Spa areas, hospitals, nursing homes: 45 dB(A) during the day, 35 dB(A) at night
Inside buildings, even stricter limits apply to the sound level of heat pumps or air-source heat pumps: 35 dB(A) during the day, 25 dB(A) at night
This means that if your neighbor’s system exceeds the permitted decibel levels, they must make adjustments; this is usually easy to accomplish as long as the devices meet European standards. I therefore see no reasonable reason why you should not pursue this strictly if the noise level is unbearable for you. However, you will need to prove that it is too loud. But I assume you are aware of that.
Unfortunately, I know many cases where neighbors complain even before the outdoor unit is connected. And that despite ongoing improvements in noise reduction technology. That’s why I say that people often “hear” what they see, and so I argue against blanket criticism and half-hearted justifications.
Again – even the "Lada" you mentioned has limits to comply with. Not fudged, but real limits; in the worst case, judges don’t take that lightly.
I can’t see where you live on my phone; if it’s on my way, I’d gladly take you up on your offer if I’m in the area.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Bauexperte
I’m not particularly bothered by noise, but I wouldn’t describe 40-45 dB as quiet or peaceful. You can definitely hear it, and if someone is sensitive to noise, I can imagine it being disturbing. Also, 40 dB is already the night limit, and pure residential areas are quite rare; most are designated as general residential zones.
55 dB, the daytime limit, is comparable to a vacuum cleaner at a distance of 10 meters (33 feet). I definitely wouldn’t want to tolerate that level from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.
The noise regulations and their limits come from the 1960s. As far as I’ve read, these limits have never been updated. There is definitely a need for revision, just as our standards have evolved over the decades regarding diesel emissions, fine particulate matter, road safety, and so on.
55 dB, the daytime limit, is comparable to a vacuum cleaner at a distance of 10 meters (33 feet). I definitely wouldn’t want to tolerate that level from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.
The noise regulations and their limits come from the 1960s. As far as I’ve read, these limits have never been updated. There is definitely a need for revision, just as our standards have evolved over the decades regarding diesel emissions, fine particulate matter, road safety, and so on.
B
Bieber08155 Jan 2016 23:36Bauexperte schrieb:
In Germany, noise limits must be observed Apparently, this does not apply to motorcycles and leaf blowers ;-) SCNRSemi-offtopic: In Switzerland, ventilation systems must comply with lower dB(A) limits than in Germany. The better is the enemy of the good.
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