Hello everyone,
In about three weeks, we are supposed to finalize our electrical planning on site. Unfortunately, our electrician is somewhat old-fashioned, which makes it difficult for me to collaboratively plan a future-proof electrical setup with him. Therefore, I am currently educating myself to ensure that the networking in our single-family home is fundamentally future-proof.
Basically, it’s about the LAN network... LAN wall outlets are relatively expensive, so proper planning is even more important.
About us:
- Mid to late 20s – couple without children. Planning for 2 children in the near future.
- Single-family house with a usable basement, 2 full floors, and fully equipped with concrete ceilings
- Utility room in the basement with air-to-water heat pump, ventilation system, photovoltaic system
- The router is planned to be located in the office on the ground floor
- The upper floor includes bathroom / bedroom / 2 children’s rooms
- No satellite dish or cable TV — we will use Internet TV exclusively!
Now, I am struggling to network our single-family home sensibly but as cost-effectively as possible.
I have the following questions:
1. Slightly off-topic: In the living room, I would like to have an in-wall conduit installed on the TV wall (the TV will be wall-mounted) so that no cables are visible. Is this sensible and affordable? I will get exact prices from my electrician if this makes sense at all. Would it also make sense to install power outlets at TV height? How do you plan the connections on your media wall reasonably? What should be considered?
Since we plan to use a Magenta TV box and thus IP-TV, a total of four LAN ports in the living room area would presumably be useful, right?
2. How many LAN outlets and especially where should LAN outlets be installed? Mainly: which cable? Is CAT6 sufficient?
→ Such a double LAN outlet certainly costs close to €200, so planning must be really sensible.
Is it really necessary to install 2 double LAN outlets in each children’s room? I always wonder: what is actually going to be plugged in there?
One port for the TV and one port for a multimedia device should be enough, right? So four connections would probably be overkill, correct?
The fact is: It will certainly take years or decades before our children actually use these outlets... Who knows what changes might happen by then? Therefore, could we not cost-effectively use empty conduits (empty pipes) instead?
Is it also possible to “branch off” from an existing double outlet afterward to add more ports for the room? What should be considered here? Or should we consider having an empty conduit prepared in another spot in the room so that a socket can be installed later?
3. How do you solve the “router problem”? Should the one router be placed in the office (ground floor) with LAN outlets in the existing bedrooms upstairs to ensure a stable LAN connection? Or is a router upstairs absolutely necessary?
4. How important are LAN outlets in the utility room? Should the router possibly even be located in the utility room? Because of the concrete ceiling between basement and ground floor, a second router would almost certainly be needed. How should this situation be handled with a basement?
5. What do you think about installing empty conduits for CAT cables in the kitchen / hallway etc. to enable later retrofitting? Is this relatively affordable in new builds?
I would appreciate any feedback so we can make the best possible plans 🙂
In about three weeks, we are supposed to finalize our electrical planning on site. Unfortunately, our electrician is somewhat old-fashioned, which makes it difficult for me to collaboratively plan a future-proof electrical setup with him. Therefore, I am currently educating myself to ensure that the networking in our single-family home is fundamentally future-proof.
Basically, it’s about the LAN network... LAN wall outlets are relatively expensive, so proper planning is even more important.
About us:
- Mid to late 20s – couple without children. Planning for 2 children in the near future.
- Single-family house with a usable basement, 2 full floors, and fully equipped with concrete ceilings
- Utility room in the basement with air-to-water heat pump, ventilation system, photovoltaic system
- The router is planned to be located in the office on the ground floor
- The upper floor includes bathroom / bedroom / 2 children’s rooms
- No satellite dish or cable TV — we will use Internet TV exclusively!
Now, I am struggling to network our single-family home sensibly but as cost-effectively as possible.
I have the following questions:
1. Slightly off-topic: In the living room, I would like to have an in-wall conduit installed on the TV wall (the TV will be wall-mounted) so that no cables are visible. Is this sensible and affordable? I will get exact prices from my electrician if this makes sense at all. Would it also make sense to install power outlets at TV height? How do you plan the connections on your media wall reasonably? What should be considered?
Since we plan to use a Magenta TV box and thus IP-TV, a total of four LAN ports in the living room area would presumably be useful, right?
2. How many LAN outlets and especially where should LAN outlets be installed? Mainly: which cable? Is CAT6 sufficient?
→ Such a double LAN outlet certainly costs close to €200, so planning must be really sensible.
Is it really necessary to install 2 double LAN outlets in each children’s room? I always wonder: what is actually going to be plugged in there?
One port for the TV and one port for a multimedia device should be enough, right? So four connections would probably be overkill, correct?
The fact is: It will certainly take years or decades before our children actually use these outlets... Who knows what changes might happen by then? Therefore, could we not cost-effectively use empty conduits (empty pipes) instead?
Is it also possible to “branch off” from an existing double outlet afterward to add more ports for the room? What should be considered here? Or should we consider having an empty conduit prepared in another spot in the room so that a socket can be installed later?
3. How do you solve the “router problem”? Should the one router be placed in the office (ground floor) with LAN outlets in the existing bedrooms upstairs to ensure a stable LAN connection? Or is a router upstairs absolutely necessary?
4. How important are LAN outlets in the utility room? Should the router possibly even be located in the utility room? Because of the concrete ceiling between basement and ground floor, a second router would almost certainly be needed. How should this situation be handled with a basement?
5. What do you think about installing empty conduits for CAT cables in the kitchen / hallway etc. to enable later retrofitting? Is this relatively affordable in new builds?
I would appreciate any feedback so we can make the best possible plans 🙂
X
xMisterDx27 Jul 2022 20:37I have great respect for people who already know exactly where they want to build what during the planning phase.
For us, things develop gradually; a KNX system would completely overwhelm us, even if we had the money. In the end, the exact socket that needs to be individually switchable wouldn’t be. 😀
For us, things develop gradually; a KNX system would completely overwhelm us, even if we had the money. In the end, the exact socket that needs to be individually switchable wouldn’t be. 😀
xMisterDx schrieb:
it doesn’t have to be switchable individually 😀 Thanks to KNX, such a slip-up can be fixed in 5 minutes and without heavy equipment.
xMisterDx schrieb:
those who already know exactly during the planning phase what they want to build where later on. Very few actually know that. But they don’t necessarily have to. There are established guidelines on how and where to place switches and devices.
xMisterDx schrieb:
For us, something like that just grows, That applies to KNX as well. Flexibility is one of the major advantages of the system— it can grow with the building and can be adapted at any time to changing needs and new circumstances.
X
xMisterDx27 Jul 2022 21:26Mycraft schrieb:
Thanks to KNX, such a slip-up can be fixed in 5 minutes and without heavy equipment. But you really have to be skilled to unscrew an outlet in 5 minutes, remove the insert, fumble out the 1.5mm² (15 AWG) wires, carefully take them out of the Wago connectors, put them back in, neatly push everything to the back (so it closes properly), check it, put the insert back, and screw the outlet back on.
Very few people know that. But they don’t necessarily have to. There are usual guidelines on how and where to switch and place things. I’ve noticed in discussions that classic KNX supporters have completely different priorities than I do. I prefer to switch the lights manually, ideally I want a motion sensor in the stairwell, I don’t have any roller shutters on the house, and I want as many outlets as possible to be switched individually. No groups, individually switched.
That’s true with KNX as well. Flexibility is one of the system’s great advantages; it can grow with you and be adapted anytime to your needs and new conditions. I can well imagine that. The question then is, what budget is needed to achieve this flexibility? If I want to be flexible, you basically need bus cables or empty conduits everywhere from the start. I’ve seen some KNX installations at neighbors’ places costing around 1,000 EUR (about 1,100 USD) that switch lights and roller shutters. No window contacts, no weather stations, no switched outlets. I have to admit, for me, an extra 3,500 EUR (about 3,900 USD) on the electrical installation for some empty conduits, photovoltaic system, LAN outlets, a few extra sockets, and a 5x10mm² (10 AWG) cable for a 22kW wallbox is already quite a hefty amount of money.
xMisterDx schrieb:
You really need to be quite experienced for that, Once learned, it’s learned. But often, with modern and well-designed installations, it’s not even necessary, and you just switch a cable in the distribution board.
xMisterDx schrieb:
I’ve noticed in discussions that classic KNX supporters have completely different priorities than I do. That’s probably true. It’s like with push-button phones versus smartphones. Some like one, others prefer the other. Bicycle vs. car, and so on.
xMisterDx schrieb:
I like to switch the lights manually, I’ve never understood the appeal of that, but to each their own. However, in my experience, once people experience a properly working system and live with it for a while, their need to press switches quickly decreases. Instead, they start seeing it as a burden and rather inconvenient if the lights can’t turn on and off automatically without the user having to intervene.
With KNX, you can do both anyway, if that’s what’s really wanted. It’s just a single button.
xMisterDx schrieb:
I want to individually switch as many sockets as possible. No groups, individual sockets. Nothing easier than that with KNX, and at costs now under €20 (euros) per channel, it’s truly manageable.
xMisterDx schrieb:
The question then is, from what budget does this flexibility become achievable? That’s very hard to say, because everyone has their own expectations about exactly how things should operate and what additional functions the house should have.
What often gets overlooked in planning is that you shouldn’t calculate with extra costs but rather start with a clean slate.
xMisterDx schrieb:
If I want flexibility, I basically need bus wiring or empty conduits everywhere first. Yes, bus wiring needs to go everywhere, but that’s what you do anyway if you want it done properly and, as per the title, future-proof and planned—not just “because we’ve always done it that way.”
xMisterDx schrieb:
I’ve seen some KNX installations at neighbors’ houses costing around a few thousand euros, controlling lights and blinds. No window contacts, no weather station, no switched sockets. That’s not really “true” KNX. What can you even do with all that if basic features like a weather station are missing? On top of that, the rest is left out.
I can imagine those installations are just conventional systems transferred 1:1. Honestly, it’s child’s play.
xMisterDx schrieb:
I have to admit that for me, nearly €3,500 (euros) extra for electrical work—just for some empty conduits, photovoltaic system provisions, LAN outlets, a few extra sockets, and a 5x10 cable for a 22 kW wall box—is already quite a bit of money. Same here. That’s why planning is crucial. It helps avoid major mistakes and additional costs.
X
xMisterDx28 Jul 2022 12:00I’m actually curious now. Let’s say I had wanted a real KNX system...
150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
20 ceiling outlets
16 windows without roller shutters, but awnings are planned for 6 of them—let’s see if they’ll be needed
45 power outlets (some double, some triple, 2 with four sockets)
4 exterior lights
Lunos e² ventilation system with automatic control and exhaust fans
How much would it have roughly cost to make all of this smart, so that I wouldn’t need any light switches anymore?
Just a rough estimate.
150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
20 ceiling outlets
16 windows without roller shutters, but awnings are planned for 6 of them—let’s see if they’ll be needed
45 power outlets (some double, some triple, 2 with four sockets)
4 exterior lights
Lunos e² ventilation system with automatic control and exhaust fans
How much would it have roughly cost to make all of this smart, so that I wouldn’t need any light switches anymore?
Just a rough estimate.
What exactly do you mean by “smart”? It’s a very flexible term.
Out of the 45 sockets, how many do you want to be switchable in the initial setup? Of course, the wiring will be done so that each one can be controlled individually, but how many need to be functional immediately?
The same goes for the lights: how many should be simple on/off, how many dimmable, halogen or LED (not retrofit, genuine LED fixtures)?
How many touch sensors? Something basic, or more features with displays and indicators, etc.?
Central control units (several)? External access? Monitoring? Usage statistics? Consumption measurement? HVAC? The Lunos system can be integrated, but it’s optional.
KNX is hard to assess without detailed discussions and explorations to understand what the client really wants, and it goes far beyond lighting, shutters, and outlets.
Out of the 45 sockets, how many do you want to be switchable in the initial setup? Of course, the wiring will be done so that each one can be controlled individually, but how many need to be functional immediately?
The same goes for the lights: how many should be simple on/off, how many dimmable, halogen or LED (not retrofit, genuine LED fixtures)?
How many touch sensors? Something basic, or more features with displays and indicators, etc.?
Central control units (several)? External access? Monitoring? Usage statistics? Consumption measurement? HVAC? The Lunos system can be integrated, but it’s optional.
KNX is hard to assess without detailed discussions and explorations to understand what the client really wants, and it goes far beyond lighting, shutters, and outlets.