Hello *,
we are at the beginning of our house planning and would like to include a pantry for vegetables, fruit, cakes, drinks, etc.
In my opinion, integrating this into the highly insulated building envelope is not practical because the room will likely not stay particularly cool or, if it does (for example, through additional cooling), then due to the cold interior walls of the pantry and warmer walls of the adjacent rooms, condensation might form on the walls—right?
Therefore, we considered adding the pantry, about 5-6m² (54-65 ft²), outside the insulated envelope. There should be direct access from the kitchen to this room via a door that is usually kept closed. A second door inside the pantry would provide access from the garage or carport for easy storage of purchased goods.
We are aware that having two doors also means less wall space.
It is often recommended not to use concrete for the flooring but rather the earth itself to help regulate humidity levels. I would therefore only lay a foundation for the walls and cover the rest with ??? so that the natural ground moisture can be regulated well.
Are my considerations reasonable and feasible (without huge effort)? What do you think?
Should I connect the room to the planned ventilation system, or would a ventilation opening at the top suffice (considering winter)?
Oh yes, it will be a Passive House, built with a "wood-Lego" system Steko with cellulose insulation blown into the "blocks" and probably wood fiber insulation boards on the outside.
The room faces north.
SAnAH
we are at the beginning of our house planning and would like to include a pantry for vegetables, fruit, cakes, drinks, etc.
In my opinion, integrating this into the highly insulated building envelope is not practical because the room will likely not stay particularly cool or, if it does (for example, through additional cooling), then due to the cold interior walls of the pantry and warmer walls of the adjacent rooms, condensation might form on the walls—right?
Therefore, we considered adding the pantry, about 5-6m² (54-65 ft²), outside the insulated envelope. There should be direct access from the kitchen to this room via a door that is usually kept closed. A second door inside the pantry would provide access from the garage or carport for easy storage of purchased goods.
We are aware that having two doors also means less wall space.
It is often recommended not to use concrete for the flooring but rather the earth itself to help regulate humidity levels. I would therefore only lay a foundation for the walls and cover the rest with ??? so that the natural ground moisture can be regulated well.
Are my considerations reasonable and feasible (without huge effort)? What do you think?
Should I connect the room to the planned ventilation system, or would a ventilation opening at the top suffice (considering winter)?
Oh yes, it will be a Passive House, built with a "wood-Lego" system Steko with cellulose insulation blown into the "blocks" and probably wood fiber insulation boards on the outside.
The room faces north.
SAnAH
Hello,
from a building technology perspective, what you’re planning is basically not a problem, as it’s essentially like a kind of shed attached to the house. However, I wonder about winter conditions when temperatures drop well below 0° Celsius (32°F). Most food items don’t tolerate those temperatures. So, you would need to heat the space to some extent, and without proper insulation, the heat will just escape quickly.
I honestly can’t quite see how this would work when taking all the boundary conditions into account. I think a well-insulated room where you can turn off the heating—such as a pantry or, if available, a basement room—is much better suited. Insulation works both ways; it also prevents the room from heating up excessively. And if you avoid other sources of heat (windows, appliances, etc.), such a space should stay relatively cool.
Best regards
Bratac
from a building technology perspective, what you’re planning is basically not a problem, as it’s essentially like a kind of shed attached to the house. However, I wonder about winter conditions when temperatures drop well below 0° Celsius (32°F). Most food items don’t tolerate those temperatures. So, you would need to heat the space to some extent, and without proper insulation, the heat will just escape quickly.
I honestly can’t quite see how this would work when taking all the boundary conditions into account. I think a well-insulated room where you can turn off the heating—such as a pantry or, if available, a basement room—is much better suited. Insulation works both ways; it also prevents the room from heating up excessively. And if you avoid other sources of heat (windows, appliances, etc.), such a space should stay relatively cool.
Best regards
Bratac
I can understand the desire; we have looked into it as well. But adding a pantry outside is basically not practical, considering issues like frost and direct sunlight. The old-style pantries were either in the basement with a constant temperature of around 15°C (59°F) or inside the house, with an opening to the outside and always in the shade.
Nowadays, long-term storage is less necessary because supply situations are very reliable. There are also very efficient refrigerators with zero-degree compartments that keep vegetables fresh for a long time. We bought one that is 178 cm (70 inches) tall. That is enough to keep vegetables fresh for one to two weeks. Our pantry will only be used for dry storage and storing equipment.
Overall, this approach is much cheaper than building a pantry, especially since that would require an extremely well-insulated door. In the end, that would just become another potential weak spot in the house where energy could be lost and thermal bridges might occur.
Finally, people either live in rural areas where they can still get well-stored potatoes directly from the farmer, or in cities where you wouldn’t find natural potatoes anymore. The vegetables come from Spain, the Netherlands, etc.
Nowadays, long-term storage is less necessary because supply situations are very reliable. There are also very efficient refrigerators with zero-degree compartments that keep vegetables fresh for a long time. We bought one that is 178 cm (70 inches) tall. That is enough to keep vegetables fresh for one to two weeks. Our pantry will only be used for dry storage and storing equipment.
Overall, this approach is much cheaper than building a pantry, especially since that would require an extremely well-insulated door. In the end, that would just become another potential weak spot in the house where energy could be lost and thermal bridges might occur.
Finally, people either live in rural areas where they can still get well-stored potatoes directly from the farmer, or in cities where you wouldn’t find natural potatoes anymore. The vegetables come from Spain, the Netherlands, etc.
Hello,
Thank you very much for the responses (unfortunately, I only got around to reading them today…).
@Ato:
OK, that’s why I said "lining with ???" – I don’t really have a clear idea yet what I should put there. The bare earth is supposed to work really well as a moisture regulator. Well, we’ll see.
@Bratac
I prefer not to use the internal space inside the house for the pantry.
A heat recovery ventilation system (HRV) is also planned – the temperature should not exceed 15°C (59°F), even in summer. I would plan to include an exhaust duct there.
I thought I could insulate the external room the same way as the rest of the house and keep the temperature at a “normal” level in winter with a small electric heater – so the heating wouldn’t have to run too often.
Also, it’s not ideal to have a cold area inside a highly insulated house because of condensation issues – or is this not as critical as I have assumed so far?
@Der Da
The pantry is planned to be on the north side or in the shade.
Hmm, the pantry should also store cakes, drinks, and possibly various baking pans, boards, etc.
Unfortunately, the fridge can’t do that – although the idea isn’t bad – I will still take a look at something like that.
Can I store my potatoes, onions, tomatoes, lemons, ginger, garlic, including their flavors… in a 0°C (32°F) fridge?
I’d rather avoid having to drive away every day (using a car would be necessary), and I prefer to keep an extra bag of flour at home...
Regarding the topic "significantly cheaper" – that certainly will be the case, and if the project reaches my pain threshold, I will have to hit the emergency brake...
Have a wonderful weekend
Thank you very much for the responses (unfortunately, I only got around to reading them today…).
@Ato:
But what about the bare earth floor in the pantry...? Mice, mold, fungi...?
OK, that’s why I said "lining with ???" – I don’t really have a clear idea yet what I should put there. The bare earth is supposed to work really well as a moisture regulator. Well, we’ll see.
@Bratac
I prefer not to use the internal space inside the house for the pantry.
A heat recovery ventilation system (HRV) is also planned – the temperature should not exceed 15°C (59°F), even in summer. I would plan to include an exhaust duct there.
I thought I could insulate the external room the same way as the rest of the house and keep the temperature at a “normal” level in winter with a small electric heater – so the heating wouldn’t have to run too often.
Also, it’s not ideal to have a cold area inside a highly insulated house because of condensation issues – or is this not as critical as I have assumed so far?
@Der Da
The pantry is planned to be on the north side or in the shade.
Hmm, the pantry should also store cakes, drinks, and possibly various baking pans, boards, etc.
Unfortunately, the fridge can’t do that – although the idea isn’t bad – I will still take a look at something like that.
Can I store my potatoes, onions, tomatoes, lemons, ginger, garlic, including their flavors… in a 0°C (32°F) fridge?
I’d rather avoid having to drive away every day (using a car would be necessary), and I prefer to keep an extra bag of flour at home...
Regarding the topic "significantly cheaper" – that certainly will be the case, and if the project reaches my pain threshold, I will have to hit the emergency brake...
Have a wonderful weekend
P
perlenmann8 Jul 2012 14:53So the most practical solution for your needs remains a basement!
Adding a separate building section with different climate control is unnecessarily expensive, and I would really be worried about whether it’s even structurally feasible.
I also have a 0-degree refrigerator! Or rather, it has a meat compartment at 0°C (32°F) and a vegetable compartment at 0°C (32°F) with adjustable humidity.
I can absolutely recommend it, except that the apples are cold as soon as you take them out... but they easily keep fresh for over a month without shriveling!
Check if there is a whole refrigerator based on this principle? To store everything inside, even the 2m (6.5 feet) model is too small!
Adding a separate building section with different climate control is unnecessarily expensive, and I would really be worried about whether it’s even structurally feasible.
I also have a 0-degree refrigerator! Or rather, it has a meat compartment at 0°C (32°F) and a vegetable compartment at 0°C (32°F) with adjustable humidity.
I can absolutely recommend it, except that the apples are cold as soon as you take them out... but they easily keep fresh for over a month without shriveling!
Check if there is a whole refrigerator based on this principle? To store everything inside, even the 2m (6.5 feet) model is too small!
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