Hello Forum,
I have been quietly following the discussions here for some time and now have a small request/question of my own.
I’m looking for an opinion from someone knowledgeable or who may have experience with something similar.
I am facing the decision to either renovate an old house or demolish it and build new. The house is an older building from 1936 with solid masonry walls and about 6cm (2.5 inches) of air gap between the inner and outer walls. A renovation would essentially require renewing almost everything (insulation, roof, electrical system, plumbing, flooring, heating, etc.), which according to an initial rough estimate from an expert would cost around 150,000 euros.
The house itself has 160 square meters (approximately 1,722 square feet) of living space, or about 200 square meters (2,153 square feet) including the converted attic. For the plan to work and allow for a generational change, an extension with a separate apartment is needed. For this, the existing annex (built in 1937) behind the house would have to be either demolished or renovated. The annex likely has thinner walls and renovating it might be more complex (possibly requiring interior insulation). There is no estimate yet for the renovation of this second part.
Now my question, and I know this mostly depends on personal taste, but I thought I’d simply ask: In this case, is a renovation worthwhile? According to the expert, new construction with similar quality would cost about 1,400 euros per square meter, more like 1,600 euros if you want something custom-built rather than a "catalog" house (so around 240,000 euros on average). Basically, I do like the old house (higher ceilings, good layout, solid walls…) but of course I don’t want to pay more for a renovation than for new construction. Also, the renovation would barely reach a KfW 100 energy standard, while a new build would likely meet KfW 55 or similar.
So mentally, I am comparing the renovation with a new extension including the separate apartment against a complete new build. If I exclude the separate apartment, I guess 150,000 euros for 160 square meters is a reasonable price, right?
What do you think? Does anyone have experience? What would be a typical cost estimate for a complete new build (including the separate apartment) plus demolition?
Sorry for the longer message, and I hope someone can share a brief reply.
Thanks,
Dave
I have been quietly following the discussions here for some time and now have a small request/question of my own.
I’m looking for an opinion from someone knowledgeable or who may have experience with something similar.
I am facing the decision to either renovate an old house or demolish it and build new. The house is an older building from 1936 with solid masonry walls and about 6cm (2.5 inches) of air gap between the inner and outer walls. A renovation would essentially require renewing almost everything (insulation, roof, electrical system, plumbing, flooring, heating, etc.), which according to an initial rough estimate from an expert would cost around 150,000 euros.
The house itself has 160 square meters (approximately 1,722 square feet) of living space, or about 200 square meters (2,153 square feet) including the converted attic. For the plan to work and allow for a generational change, an extension with a separate apartment is needed. For this, the existing annex (built in 1937) behind the house would have to be either demolished or renovated. The annex likely has thinner walls and renovating it might be more complex (possibly requiring interior insulation). There is no estimate yet for the renovation of this second part.
Now my question, and I know this mostly depends on personal taste, but I thought I’d simply ask: In this case, is a renovation worthwhile? According to the expert, new construction with similar quality would cost about 1,400 euros per square meter, more like 1,600 euros if you want something custom-built rather than a "catalog" house (so around 240,000 euros on average). Basically, I do like the old house (higher ceilings, good layout, solid walls…) but of course I don’t want to pay more for a renovation than for new construction. Also, the renovation would barely reach a KfW 100 energy standard, while a new build would likely meet KfW 55 or similar.
So mentally, I am comparing the renovation with a new extension including the separate apartment against a complete new build. If I exclude the separate apartment, I guess 150,000 euros for 160 square meters is a reasonable price, right?
What do you think? Does anyone have experience? What would be a typical cost estimate for a complete new build (including the separate apartment) plus demolition?
Sorry for the longer message, and I hope someone can share a brief reply.
Thanks,
Dave
Hello,
I cannot properly assess the estimated renovation costs of 150,000 euros. A cost estimate based on comparative values such as price per square meter (square foot) of living space or similar is not useful for renovations. In this case, only a detailed cost calculation for each individual building component helps, for example, replacing x windows of average size with a certain quality, and so on. Perhaps the mentioned expert calculated it this way. Otherwise, the 150,000 euros cannot really be compared to a new build. The range can be huge for renovations, and sometimes they can even be more expensive than a new build.
The 1,400 to 1,600 euros per square meter (square foot) for a new build, on the other hand, are realistic if the price refers to living space—of course depending on the desired level of finish. However, when it comes to energy standards, please note that the KfW-70 standard is usually achieved with increased wall thickness or insulation (e.g., ETICS—External Thermal Insulation Composite System). The KfW-55 standard, however, requires additional technical components (heat pump, heat recovery, or similar) and considerably higher insulation. Even with a new build, a higher KfW standard is not “automatically” guaranteed; KfW-55 will significantly affect the price, especially if you plan to include a basement.
By the way, a granny flat (accessory dwelling unit) is also a cost factor that should not be underestimated—particularly if you plan to rent it out in the future.
If interior insulation is considered during a renovation, I advise caution and involving a building physicist or another experienced specialist. There is an increased risk of building damage (such as mold growth) in this case.
It is important to consider the total costs for both renovation and new build. This also includes additional construction costs, such as planning fees, landscaping, and so forth. For demolition, don’t forget to include the costs for rubble disposal.
Of course, it is not possible to recommend new build or renovation from a distance. To really make a comparison, a reliable cost calculation for the renovation should be prepared in my opinion. That will be worth it if you are considering renovation. A rough cost estimate does not help here. Because if pretty much everything has to be renewed during a renovation, as you write, it is quite possible that the estimated 150,000 euros will not be enough.
I cannot properly assess the estimated renovation costs of 150,000 euros. A cost estimate based on comparative values such as price per square meter (square foot) of living space or similar is not useful for renovations. In this case, only a detailed cost calculation for each individual building component helps, for example, replacing x windows of average size with a certain quality, and so on. Perhaps the mentioned expert calculated it this way. Otherwise, the 150,000 euros cannot really be compared to a new build. The range can be huge for renovations, and sometimes they can even be more expensive than a new build.
The 1,400 to 1,600 euros per square meter (square foot) for a new build, on the other hand, are realistic if the price refers to living space—of course depending on the desired level of finish. However, when it comes to energy standards, please note that the KfW-70 standard is usually achieved with increased wall thickness or insulation (e.g., ETICS—External Thermal Insulation Composite System). The KfW-55 standard, however, requires additional technical components (heat pump, heat recovery, or similar) and considerably higher insulation. Even with a new build, a higher KfW standard is not “automatically” guaranteed; KfW-55 will significantly affect the price, especially if you plan to include a basement.
By the way, a granny flat (accessory dwelling unit) is also a cost factor that should not be underestimated—particularly if you plan to rent it out in the future.
If interior insulation is considered during a renovation, I advise caution and involving a building physicist or another experienced specialist. There is an increased risk of building damage (such as mold growth) in this case.
It is important to consider the total costs for both renovation and new build. This also includes additional construction costs, such as planning fees, landscaping, and so forth. For demolition, don’t forget to include the costs for rubble disposal.
Of course, it is not possible to recommend new build or renovation from a distance. To really make a comparison, a reliable cost calculation for the renovation should be prepared in my opinion. That will be worth it if you are considering renovation. A rough cost estimate does not help here. Because if pretty much everything has to be renewed during a renovation, as you write, it is quite possible that the estimated 150,000 euros will not be enough.
B
Bauexperte2 Dec 2012 13:51Hello Dave,
With a renovation, there is usually a slight downside – the basic structure remains old. I also find it hard to believe that the costs estimated by an expert for the main house will match reality later on. It often happens that you start in one area and only then realize that further renovation work is needed.
Even with a complete new build – which I would recommend to you – you can influence the ceiling height; you can even rebuild the “old” floor plan exactly as it was. BUT – everything must comply with the current energy saving regulations; it doesn’t have to be KfW 55, but KfW 70 makes sense and offers a reasonable price-performance ratio.
I myself live in an old house and unfortunately cannot demolish it; I know very well the difference between appraisals and reality.
Best regards
hausdave schrieb:
With the renovation, you only just reach the KfW 100 standard, while a new build would be more like KfW 55 or similar. So mentally, I’m comparing the renovation with a new build that includes a granny flat. If I exclude the granny flat, I think €150,000 (approximately $150,000) is a good price for 160sqm (1722 sq ft) of living space, right?
With a renovation, there is usually a slight downside – the basic structure remains old. I also find it hard to believe that the costs estimated by an expert for the main house will match reality later on. It often happens that you start in one area and only then realize that further renovation work is needed.
Even with a complete new build – which I would recommend to you – you can influence the ceiling height; you can even rebuild the “old” floor plan exactly as it was. BUT – everything must comply with the current energy saving regulations; it doesn’t have to be KfW 55, but KfW 70 makes sense and offers a reasonable price-performance ratio.
I myself live in an old house and unfortunately cannot demolish it; I know very well the difference between appraisals and reality.
Best regards
Thank you very much for the quick and helpful responses! Especially since this topic is very individual.
The expert has already estimated the various measures, such as windows, heating, roof, etc. But of course, these are only rough estimates. I will request a more detailed cost calculation—thank you for the suggestion.
Furthermore, I don't expect to stay within the initial budget. I may go through the extension again with the expert and possibly an architect to see what is feasible. If, even with a contingency and rebuilding the extension, the costs are still lower than a complete new build, that will at least give me a rough idea.
The expert has already estimated the various measures, such as windows, heating, roof, etc. But of course, these are only rough estimates. I will request a more detailed cost calculation—thank you for the suggestion.
Furthermore, I don't expect to stay within the initial budget. I may go through the extension again with the expert and possibly an architect to see what is feasible. If, even with a contingency and rebuilding the extension, the costs are still lower than a complete new build, that will at least give me a rough idea.
Hello again!
In the meantime, there are also figures in writing (not an offer, just an estimate).
Shell construction
Interior work
Additional costs
Total net: 165,000.00 EUR
Total gross: 196,000.00 EUR
Can anyone comment on these figures? Are they realistic or too expensive? Is something missing? For example, I noticed that “construction management” should at least be added, and of course the underfloor heating should not only be installed in the living room.
Furthermore, he estimates that building a new main building with the same exterior dimensions would cost about total gross: 316,000.00 EUR (including demolition and additional costs). I find it hard to assess.
If anyone has done something similar and has their own figures, I would appreciate any advice on whether these numbers seem reasonable!
Best regards from the north,
Dave
In the meantime, there are also figures in writing (not an offer, just an estimate).
Shell construction
- Replacement of windows (PVC, triple-glazed) 15,000.00 EUR
- Cavity wall insulation 3,000.00 EUR
- Renewal of heating system, heat distribution, heat transfer 20,000.00 EUR
- Support with solar thermal system 7,000.00 EUR
- Attic conversion, insulation, roofing 40,000.00 EUR
- Masonry work (floor plan alterations) 10,000.00 EUR
- Screed, underfloor heating in living room 5,000.00 EUR
- Sanitary installation 12,000.00 EUR
- Electrical installation 7,000.00 EUR
Interior work
- Painting, interior plastering 9,000.00 EUR
- Tiling 6,000.00 EUR
- Floor covering installation 8,000.00 EUR
Additional costs
- Structural engineering, thermal protection, architect fees gross 23,000.00 EUR
Total net: 165,000.00 EUR
Total gross: 196,000.00 EUR
Can anyone comment on these figures? Are they realistic or too expensive? Is something missing? For example, I noticed that “construction management” should at least be added, and of course the underfloor heating should not only be installed in the living room.
Furthermore, he estimates that building a new main building with the same exterior dimensions would cost about total gross: 316,000.00 EUR (including demolition and additional costs). I find it hard to assess.
If anyone has done something similar and has their own figures, I would appreciate any advice on whether these numbers seem reasonable!
Best regards from the north,
Dave
B
Bauexperte9 Dec 2012 12:02Hello Dave,
If I calculated correctly, it’s a net of 142,000 EUR and—except for a couple of euros—a gross of 192,000 EUR.
Underfloor heating only in the living room wouldn’t make much sense; hiring an external construction manager is money well spent.
Whether the costs are reasonable or not, unfortunately no one here can say since we don’t know your building. For example, the insulation of the external masonry seems too low to me—but I could be wrong...
In your first post, you mentioned 160 sqm (1,722 sq ft) of living space; such a KfW 70 energy-efficient building should cost roughly 233,000 EUR in the north of Germany, plus ancillary costs of 30,000 EUR and demolition costs. The estimate fits if there is no asbestos in the existing building.
So, if I roughly add costs for the additional underfloor heating and an expert consultant, I arrive at about 220,000 EUR for the renovation and 320,000 EUR for a new build. These numbers basically speak for themselves. Personally, I wouldn’t want to invest a lot of money into an “old” structure that will always remain old in its substance—if I had the option to build something new in its place. Of course, this is a personal decision, and there are certainly people who want to preserve these older buildings.
Best regards
hausdave schrieb:
Total net: 165,000.00 EUR
Total gross: 196,000.00 EUR
If I calculated correctly, it’s a net of 142,000 EUR and—except for a couple of euros—a gross of 192,000 EUR.
hausdave schrieb:
Can anyone comment on these figures? Are they realistic or too expensive? Is something missing? For example, I noticed that the item "construction management" would still need to be added, and of course, the underfloor heating should not be installed only in the living room.
Underfloor heating only in the living room wouldn’t make much sense; hiring an external construction manager is money well spent.
Whether the costs are reasonable or not, unfortunately no one here can say since we don’t know your building. For example, the insulation of the external masonry seems too low to me—but I could be wrong...
hausdave schrieb:
Furthermore, he estimates that a new build of the main building with the same external dimensions would cost about a total gross of 316,000.00 EUR (including demolition and ancillary costs). I find this hard to assess.
In your first post, you mentioned 160 sqm (1,722 sq ft) of living space; such a KfW 70 energy-efficient building should cost roughly 233,000 EUR in the north of Germany, plus ancillary costs of 30,000 EUR and demolition costs. The estimate fits if there is no asbestos in the existing building.
So, if I roughly add costs for the additional underfloor heating and an expert consultant, I arrive at about 220,000 EUR for the renovation and 320,000 EUR for a new build. These numbers basically speak for themselves. Personally, I wouldn’t want to invest a lot of money into an “old” structure that will always remain old in its substance—if I had the option to build something new in its place. Of course, this is a personal decision, and there are certainly people who want to preserve these older buildings.
Best regards