ᐅ Offer from architect/engineer, building owner protection association

Hello everyone,

We are from central Hesse and decided to build a house about two years ago. I am new here and already appreciate any tips.

After a long search, we finally found a plot of land that satisfies us. Since we have many skilled tradespeople (electricians, plumbers, plasterers, heating engineers, painters, masons) in our family and friends circle, we want an architect to design the house and supervise the shell construction (earthworks, masonry, concrete work, roof). We will contract the other trades ourselves.

Architect/Engineer:

I contacted an architect who sent me an offer that also includes engineering services for thermal insulation/energy and structural calculations. All prices are gross.

1) €4,000.00 for the basis, preliminary design, and draft planning, including cost estimates for the bank
2) €6,000.00 for planning permission / building permit
3) €2,400.00 for shell construction supervision and acceptance (only supervision of masonry and concrete work. The service description does not mention awarding orders for the shell builder, earthworks contractor, or carpenter. I still need to ask about this.)
4) €3,600.00 for structural calculations and thermal insulation certification
Total €16,000.00 gross.

What do you think about this offer? I find the second service quite expensive. We have not accepted it yet and are still waiting for responses from other architects.

Associations for Homeowner Protection:

We definitely plan to have contracts and offers reviewed by a building expert and/or a lawyer. For our construction project, is it helpful to register with the Homeowners’ Protection Association or the Private Builders Association? The membership fees aren’t too high to afford, but I still don’t see the advantage of using those associations as intermediaries for experts or lawyers.

1) Most experts are either civil engineers or architects themselves. Since we already have an architect, I could have their offer checked by an expert. Then our architect supervises the construction site until the shell is completed. After that, we can still hire him to review the remaining services.

2) A friend told me that he paid an expert from the Private Builders Association – which I was also considering – €500.00 for reviewing the contract with the general contractor. In addition, about €2,000.00 for five inspection visits including travel costs (25 km (15.5 miles) away). I really don’t see a price advantage there. Their fee rates on the website and on the Private Builders Association’s page are the same.

What is your opinion on this?

Thank you

Temper1789 schrieb:
1) €4,000.00 base fee, preliminary design, and conceptual planning, cost calculation for the bank
2) €6,000.00 permit planning / planning permission
3) €2,400.00 shell construction supervision and acceptance (only monitoring of masonry and concrete work. The service description does not include awarding/hiring of the shell construction contractor, civil engineer, or carpenter. I still need to ask about this.)
4) €3,600.00 structural engineering and thermal insulation verification
Total €16,000.00 gross.

What do you think about this offer? I find the second service expensive. We haven’t accepted it yet and are still waiting for responses from other architects.

This is now getting a bit "grey area". Architects usually charge based on the HOAI (German Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers) (-> google), where the fee is calculated partly according to so-called "eligible costs". There are different design phases, namely 1 to 9.

If you look into this, your offer actually seems rather "inexpensive". However, for example, it would need to be clarified based on which drawings the shell construction supervision takes place. Permit planning is usually at scale 1:100, whereas working drawings are typically at 1:50 scale.

Tendering / awarding is its own service phase, for which at least our architect used the working drawings as the basis to define all items and quantities accordingly. In your case, only the shell construction would be tendered and supervised (supervision: separate service phase), so the effort and level of detail of the drawings might be somewhat reduced again.
But how, for example, the shell contractor should place the correct recesses and openings if neither the electrical planning nor HVAC (heating, ventilation, and air conditioning) are known, is probably an interesting question.

You need to carefully read exactly what you are getting.
"Basic design, preliminary planning, and design development" actually require much more effort than the permit planning phase, where you mostly just compile the documents from the earlier phases. From the fee breakdown, it can be inferred that for 1) you receive a plan that will be refined 1-2 more times. In 2) the planner then puts together a document that is of no use to you except for obtaining the building permit / planning permission.
3) For the fee, it’s just a few reviews and writing a report.
4) "You have a standard house, and the structural calculations and heat protection proofs can be adapted from a comparable house."

As already mentioned, this kind of work would normally be much more expensive.

Hey,

thanks for the responses.

@caddar
I’ve looked at the HOAI and know that this offer is already very affordable. The actual scope still needs to be examined more closely. I’m compiling a list of questions to ask him, including electrical and HVAC plans, etc.

@Lumpi_LE
I don’t understand why it’s split up like that either. Also, he already knows the site and the requirements of the local building authority (building permit / planning permission).
He also mentioned that he has a structural shell contractor they sometimes work with. He could hire him later if we want. But I don’t trust that, because the architect should be more on our side, not “friends” with the contractor.

Do architects still strictly charge 100% according to HOAI these days? A friend showed me an offer from another architect—also broken down according to HOAI. For chargeable costs of 350,000 euros, he charged a total of 26,000 euros net, about 60% only. Fee scale III, HOAI 2013.

If we want to work with this architect, he should make the offer more detailed. Everything he intends to do should be listed, because we can’t rely on HOAI for any services.

The architect’s quote is inexpensive.
Choosing an architect based on price alone is like preferring a cheap house over a quality one.

Temper1789 schrieb:
Do architects nowadays charge exactly 100% according to HOAI?

I can only speak from my limited personal experience (and conversations with our architect), but this is how I see the situation:

Most clients include the architect in the total price through the general contractor/developer. They never see separate costs for the planning—the architect is "free" (which is obviously not true, but it’s common practice. It’s an overall package with mixed cost calculations).

Architects working in new construction, mostly designing "standard" houses, tend to offer fixed-price packages or "budget-friendly" deals, since few clients want to pay the full HOAI amount (for about €50,000 (around $55,000) you can get a lot of upgrades when working with the general contractor). The house is then usually a variation of previous designs to keep effort as low as possible.

In the renovation/refurbishment sector, on the other hand, there aren’t many alternatives to a good architect if you’re not a professional yourself or don’t have strong confidence in the coordination skills of the trades involved. There, architects can sometimes even negotiate a surcharge on top of the HOAI fees for renovation work.

Your situation is somewhat different since you only want parts of the architect’s services. How meaningful it is to separate these parts is something you’ll need to evaluate. If you already know the other contractors you plan to hire directly, you can try to have your architect consider their input in the planning. Whether I would do that as an architect—and the related liability—probably depends on my current workload.