Hello,
how did you approach lighting design and when exactly did you plan/implement it?
I still have the option to install Halox P housings with transformer tunnel (€60) for LED recessed spots. I’m not really convinced by spots (focused light + high costs), but what alternatives are there?
how did you approach lighting design and when exactly did you plan/implement it?
I still have the option to install Halox P housings with transformer tunnel (€60) for LED recessed spots. I’m not really convinced by spots (focused light + high costs), but what alternatives are there?
R
R.Hotzenplotz24 Feb 2018 00:19ypg schrieb:
Why bother with all the fuss about lighting design if you want everything bright?Why everything? I was referring to three specific areas.
Otherwise, I could have just kept the old lighting design as it was and only removed a few spotlights.
Hi R.Hotzenplotz!
May I ask what your lighting planners are charging? Just for reference...
I don’t actually find the latest plan too bad. I think it’s important to consider your own preferred style. Personally, I’m not a fan of recessed ceiling spots—not in the quantity you’ve planned or overall—because it feels too mainstream to me and the cost of all those ceiling back boxes in the precast concrete ceiling would really hurt. At our concrete plant, they charge around 70 EUR per box, which I would never want to pay for, and don’t really need either. That’s enough general rambling from me.
Regarding your questions and concerns: despite my personal dislike of recessed spots, I think your planner’s approach is good and makes sense. The asymmetry is clearly visible and consistently applied. I would actually allow that asymmetry in the hallway as well. I find a consistent design concept more sensible than breaking it up. Especially in the hallway, which serves as a connecting element between rooms, this approach seems logical. Also, I personally don’t see much point in lighting a hallway on the upper floor excessively bright. To me, that feels sterile and uninviting. Same goes for the bathroom. I must say, I find the layout completely sufficient as general lighting. The porcelain is illuminated without dazzling those using the space. The other spot adds an accent and probably even gives the room more depth—especially because it’s not evenly lit. Similar in the main bathroom. In both cases, I would definitely include a mirror light (please a high-quality one) to ensure good illumination for makeup or shaving. Lighting coming from behind you, possibly with a different color temperature, won’t help much. For example, I would keep the main bathroom lighting ambient and cozy to promote relaxation—complemented by functional lighting where it’s needed, namely at the mirrors.
In the master bedroom, children’s rooms, and living room, I find the asymmetrical double wall spots near the walls quite nice. They can create a pleasant atmosphere and add depth to the rooms due to the light patterns. I especially like this idea in the bedroom—and definitely in the living room. I’ve never understood the need for a central ceiling light over the bed in a bedroom. The same goes for the living room. It would be interesting to hear how you would use it. If you’re unsure, consider installing an empty back box where you are uncertain and simply skim coat it over. That way, you’re safe. That’s what I do in our living room, for example. There, I’ve planned a warm white LED strip under the lowboard and two wall lights that also cast light upwards onto the ceiling. That’s more than enough for ambient lighting in the living room. The rest is highlighted by a tripod floor lamp next to the sofa and two strategically placed cubic shelf lights from IKEA. So, the whole living room has only those two wall lights for about 26 square meters. For safety, there will be a recessed back box in the center of the room—or near the coffee table—that is skim coated as a fallback.
Even lighting is important to me in work areas such as the office, technical room, and laundry room. In living spaces, for me personally, it’s definitely a no-go because I want to live and feel comfortable there—and that is better achieved with atmospheric, accent lighting rather than sterile office lighting.
I have some difficulties with the kitchen lighting. I agree with kbt09 here. The spots between the island and stove don’t make much sense. When you are cooking at the stove, the light would be behind you, same while washing dishes. You do have LED strips above the island (which is fine), but then think about when you would actually turn on the ceiling spots or why.
Since you’re installing a KNX system, you fortunately don’t have to worry about how to switch what from where. Some advice might assume you’re using conventional wiring. Especially in the bedroom, controlling lights from the bed is almost a given. You can easily reprogram what’s needed later, including everything related to night dimming.
Basically, if you want or need to watch the budget a bit, you can definitely reduce the number of spots. For example, in the children’s rooms (although I like the spot idea), you could also use shelves or floor lamps to create ambiance and atmospheric lighting. Your KNX bus comes in handy here again, as you can create scenes with outlets and switch lights on and off accordingly. This would also apply to the living room, although I’d keep it as planned there. It is, after all, the public area—so more lighting there than in private spaces makes sense.
Regarding the living room light: of course, it’s a matter of taste. My opinion: absolutely terrible. To me, those lights look like a failed attempt and are totally over the top for a single-family home. I don’t think they fit with the planned indirect lighting. In a design-oriented hotel, sure, they’d be an eye-catcher—but in a family home? But as I said, taste is subjective. My own Occhios (Sento, Piu, and Mito) probably wouldn’t suit everyone either.
About DALI: I used to want DALI myself but now plan to do everything with KNX actuators. You have a lot of spots (I assume LED), so there may be a slight cost advantage with DALI. I think with around 20 LED fixtures and up, it’s worth considering DALI and expecting a small price benefit. The question is why your planner insists on DALI here. I decided against it because the price per channel isn’t dramatically cheaper. Also, you need a DALI gateway—that should fairly be included in the channel price. The main issue for me is that with DALI, even when the lights are off, power is still flowing. They aren’t off like a switch actuator at 0%, but draw some power in the background. Even if it’s probably not much, I don’t see the point. What I would recommend: wire your light points consistently with 5x1.5, then you’re safe in terms of DALI and can always retrofit it later.
Best regards and good luck with your project!
May I ask what your lighting planners are charging? Just for reference...
I don’t actually find the latest plan too bad. I think it’s important to consider your own preferred style. Personally, I’m not a fan of recessed ceiling spots—not in the quantity you’ve planned or overall—because it feels too mainstream to me and the cost of all those ceiling back boxes in the precast concrete ceiling would really hurt. At our concrete plant, they charge around 70 EUR per box, which I would never want to pay for, and don’t really need either. That’s enough general rambling from me.
Regarding your questions and concerns: despite my personal dislike of recessed spots, I think your planner’s approach is good and makes sense. The asymmetry is clearly visible and consistently applied. I would actually allow that asymmetry in the hallway as well. I find a consistent design concept more sensible than breaking it up. Especially in the hallway, which serves as a connecting element between rooms, this approach seems logical. Also, I personally don’t see much point in lighting a hallway on the upper floor excessively bright. To me, that feels sterile and uninviting. Same goes for the bathroom. I must say, I find the layout completely sufficient as general lighting. The porcelain is illuminated without dazzling those using the space. The other spot adds an accent and probably even gives the room more depth—especially because it’s not evenly lit. Similar in the main bathroom. In both cases, I would definitely include a mirror light (please a high-quality one) to ensure good illumination for makeup or shaving. Lighting coming from behind you, possibly with a different color temperature, won’t help much. For example, I would keep the main bathroom lighting ambient and cozy to promote relaxation—complemented by functional lighting where it’s needed, namely at the mirrors.
In the master bedroom, children’s rooms, and living room, I find the asymmetrical double wall spots near the walls quite nice. They can create a pleasant atmosphere and add depth to the rooms due to the light patterns. I especially like this idea in the bedroom—and definitely in the living room. I’ve never understood the need for a central ceiling light over the bed in a bedroom. The same goes for the living room. It would be interesting to hear how you would use it. If you’re unsure, consider installing an empty back box where you are uncertain and simply skim coat it over. That way, you’re safe. That’s what I do in our living room, for example. There, I’ve planned a warm white LED strip under the lowboard and two wall lights that also cast light upwards onto the ceiling. That’s more than enough for ambient lighting in the living room. The rest is highlighted by a tripod floor lamp next to the sofa and two strategically placed cubic shelf lights from IKEA. So, the whole living room has only those two wall lights for about 26 square meters. For safety, there will be a recessed back box in the center of the room—or near the coffee table—that is skim coated as a fallback.
Even lighting is important to me in work areas such as the office, technical room, and laundry room. In living spaces, for me personally, it’s definitely a no-go because I want to live and feel comfortable there—and that is better achieved with atmospheric, accent lighting rather than sterile office lighting.
I have some difficulties with the kitchen lighting. I agree with kbt09 here. The spots between the island and stove don’t make much sense. When you are cooking at the stove, the light would be behind you, same while washing dishes. You do have LED strips above the island (which is fine), but then think about when you would actually turn on the ceiling spots or why.
Since you’re installing a KNX system, you fortunately don’t have to worry about how to switch what from where. Some advice might assume you’re using conventional wiring. Especially in the bedroom, controlling lights from the bed is almost a given. You can easily reprogram what’s needed later, including everything related to night dimming.
Basically, if you want or need to watch the budget a bit, you can definitely reduce the number of spots. For example, in the children’s rooms (although I like the spot idea), you could also use shelves or floor lamps to create ambiance and atmospheric lighting. Your KNX bus comes in handy here again, as you can create scenes with outlets and switch lights on and off accordingly. This would also apply to the living room, although I’d keep it as planned there. It is, after all, the public area—so more lighting there than in private spaces makes sense.
Regarding the living room light: of course, it’s a matter of taste. My opinion: absolutely terrible. To me, those lights look like a failed attempt and are totally over the top for a single-family home. I don’t think they fit with the planned indirect lighting. In a design-oriented hotel, sure, they’d be an eye-catcher—but in a family home? But as I said, taste is subjective. My own Occhios (Sento, Piu, and Mito) probably wouldn’t suit everyone either.
About DALI: I used to want DALI myself but now plan to do everything with KNX actuators. You have a lot of spots (I assume LED), so there may be a slight cost advantage with DALI. I think with around 20 LED fixtures and up, it’s worth considering DALI and expecting a small price benefit. The question is why your planner insists on DALI here. I decided against it because the price per channel isn’t dramatically cheaper. Also, you need a DALI gateway—that should fairly be included in the channel price. The main issue for me is that with DALI, even when the lights are off, power is still flowing. They aren’t off like a switch actuator at 0%, but draw some power in the background. Even if it’s probably not much, I don’t see the point. What I would recommend: wire your light points consistently with 5x1.5, then you’re safe in terms of DALI and can always retrofit it later.
Best regards and good luck with your project!
R.Hotzenplotz schrieb:
The recessed spotlights in the corners of the office are meant to evenly illuminate the room. This could be useful for programming light scenes. Yes, of course that can be useful for that... but the question is, when would you actually use these lighting scenes? In your office, I see a workspace that needs to be properly lit, with lighting similar to what I linked above.
And I also see a sofa... where you might sit and read occasionally... so that would call for a reading floor lamp or something similar to provide good light for reading material.
R.Hotzenplotz schrieb:
Spotlights in the master bedroom: I don’t find them disturbing. Of course, a ceiling fixture would also work. Sure, they are not disturbing, but when do you need them? Recessed ceiling spots cost money for all the pre-installed holes, and I’m just questioning the practicality of a lighting scene here. You don’t want to turn your house into a photo studio where everything is perfectly lit all the time. Generally, in the bedroom you need reading light and cozy, intimate lighting.
For the guest bathroom and hallway, you don’t need surgical lighting either.
I’m curious to see how it will continue.
R
R.Hotzenplotz24 Feb 2018 07:52ruppsn schrieb:
May I ask what your lighting designers charge?The first one charged 1000 € net for the lighting concept, detailed planning, coordination with the architect, and an on-site visit with the electrician. No credit if you hire them.
The second charges double that without an on-site visit. 1000 € for the lighting concept and another 1000 € for detailed planning. However, they invoice only half if you hire them.
I have been in contact with other lighting designers as well. The general trend is closer to the 2000 € price than the first one.
ruppsn schrieb:
Our concrete supplier charges about 70 EUR per can, which I would never consider worth it and don’t really need anyway.Here it costs € 99 net.
ruppsn schrieb:
The asymmetry is clearly noticeable and consistently applied. So I would also allow this asymmetry, especially in the hallway.Unfortunately, he has no example photos to help visualize this. We only know evenly lit rooms and find that approach good in functional spaces (for us, that includes the hallway, bathrooms, and kitchen). But I’m open to being convinced otherwise. In the living areas, for example, I can easily imagine this and trust it even without a photo example. I would like to see it in the other areas as well. Also, the kitchen with the missing lights on the left side comes to mind again.
ruppsn schrieb:
To me that seems rather sterile and not very cozy. Same thought for the restroom. I must say, I find the arrangement perfectly adequate as general lighting.Does that also apply in combination with our anthracite-colored tiles on the ground floor? Or would more lighting be needed because they absorb a lot of light?
ruppsn schrieb:
In the master bedroom as well as in the children’s rooms and living room, I quite like the asymmetrical double spotlights near the wall.In the children’s rooms? There are no double spotlights there, only one ceiling light in each.
ruppsn schrieb:
I have some difficulties with the kitchen. I agree with kbt09. Between the island and the stove, the spotlights actually don’t make much sense. When you are at the stove, the light is behind you, same when you’re washing up. You do have LED strips above the island (which is fine), but then consider when you would actually turn on the ceiling spotlights or what for.Okay, then we will remove the spotlights between the cabinets. Instead, add a spotlight above the last base cabinet below the cooktop. I’m still not quite happy with the strip light above the peninsula. Does anyone have alternative suggestions to share?
Otherwise, I agree with everything you wrote. Thank you very much for your detailed feedback.
R
R.Hotzenplotz24 Feb 2018 07:57kbt09 schrieb:
Yes, of course that can make sense… but the question is, when would you actually use these lighting scenes? In your office, I see a workspace that needs practical lighting, something like the setup I linked above.The office is used 20% as a workspace and 80% for leisure time at the PC. I need cozy lighting for relaxing but also functional lighting to work efficiently. This is very important to me. I spend twice as much time in the office as in the living room. It’s basically my main room in the house.
kbt09 schrieb:
Sure, they don’t bother anyone, but when do you actually need them? Recessed lights in the ceiling and all those pre-cut holes also cost money, so I’m just asking about the practical value of a lighting scene.You probably don’t need a lighting scene in the bedroom. But still, I think the concept is good. Upstairs there’s no need for halogen downlights, which add extra cost. There’s a drywall ceiling there. We currently have a centered ceiling light in the bedroom. It’s functional but not cozy.
kbt09 schrieb:
Guest toilet, hallway – no need for surgical lighting there either.
Looking forward to seeing how this develops.Humans are creatures of habit. You’re probably right and we just need to open up to something new. That’s exactly what we want. And I’m consciously seeking input here to question my own ideas about the concept. The previous lighting planner always presented a horror scenario about the dark tiles, insisting we couldn’t reduce the number of spots by even one or he would disclaim all responsibility for the lighting results from a professional point of view.
What do you think about these wall lights instead of recessed step lights in the stairwell between ground and upper floor?
R.Hotzenplotz schrieb:
The first charges 1000 € net for the lighting concept, [...] without a credit if contracted.
The second asks for double that without an onsite visit. [...] However, he charges half if you hire him. I’m wondering what they mean by “contracting” if concepts have already been created? Do they mean actually sourcing and installing the equipment?
I expect a lighting DESIGNER to design. Nothing more. Likewise, I don’t expect a structural engineer to pour the concrete slab themselves. For me, a good lighting design should be a standalone module that any electrician can follow.
This seems more like lighting INSTALLERS trying to inflate a somewhat upgraded fixture layout as a design service. All I see are pictures of mounting locations and fixture styles — but no data on how many lux / lumens / candelas are provided per cubic meter of each room.
To me, this is just electrical work with a touch of nouvelle cuisine.
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