Hello 🙂
*Offtopic*
Our house will be move-in ready by June 1st. Since we went for a turnkey build and I usually work during regular construction hours when the contractors are on site, I didn’t always have the chance to check everything myself.
As we are eagerly anticipating moving in and the garage was delivered today, I took the afternoon off to watch the process in person (narrow street, 9 meters (30 feet) garage – impressive how a truck maneuvers in such tight space 🙂 ).
*End of Offtopic*
I used the surveying time to walk through all the rooms and noticed that the double RJ45 sockets (2 outlets) were unfortunately not fully installed. Only single sockets were delivered here. The electrical selection only specified one socket, but I interpreted this to mean that the double outlets didn’t need to be documented separately. (I don’t build a house every day!)
The site manager confirmed the issue and admitted he forgot to inform the electrician that double sockets were ordered. Since the network cables can no longer be pulled in, this defect remains unresolved.
For 5 double network sockets with connection points including the distribution panel (which costs less than 20€), we were charged 800€.
What do you think is a reasonable compensation given that this defect can no longer be corrected? The double sockets serve a specific purpose.
Why am I even asking: We had the washbasin including the mixer tap (Grohe Eurosmart Cosmopolitan) removed from the contract and were told we would receive a credit of 88€. In my opinion, this does not reflect the material and labor costs.
I know I can’t expect to get rich 🙂
Thank you very much and have a great weekend 🙂
*Offtopic*
Our house will be move-in ready by June 1st. Since we went for a turnkey build and I usually work during regular construction hours when the contractors are on site, I didn’t always have the chance to check everything myself.
As we are eagerly anticipating moving in and the garage was delivered today, I took the afternoon off to watch the process in person (narrow street, 9 meters (30 feet) garage – impressive how a truck maneuvers in such tight space 🙂 ).
*End of Offtopic*
I used the surveying time to walk through all the rooms and noticed that the double RJ45 sockets (2 outlets) were unfortunately not fully installed. Only single sockets were delivered here. The electrical selection only specified one socket, but I interpreted this to mean that the double outlets didn’t need to be documented separately. (I don’t build a house every day!)
The site manager confirmed the issue and admitted he forgot to inform the electrician that double sockets were ordered. Since the network cables can no longer be pulled in, this defect remains unresolved.
For 5 double network sockets with connection points including the distribution panel (which costs less than 20€), we were charged 800€.
What do you think is a reasonable compensation given that this defect can no longer be corrected? The double sockets serve a specific purpose.
Why am I even asking: We had the washbasin including the mixer tap (Grohe Eurosmart Cosmopolitan) removed from the contract and were told we would receive a credit of 88€. In my opinion, this does not reflect the material and labor costs.
I know I can’t expect to get rich 🙂
Thank you very much and have a great weekend 🙂
andimann schrieb:
Yes, it definitely still needs to be clarified exactly what is stated in any contracts.
Opening up the wall only becomes relevant if the contractor didn’t install the cables in conduits. or if the conduit has too small a diameter.
We found out that WE needed a second antenna cable in the living room. When we asked if it could be added later (since it’s supposed to be inside the conduit), we were told the cable no longer fits through the conduit 🙁. Well – until now it worked fine as it was.
andimann schrieb:
What you’re basically saying is this: You order a car with power windows. The manufacturer is too lazy / incompetent / careless to install them and just puts in manual windows instead. And you’re supposed to accept the manual ones and even pay for them? And a manufacturer or builder would get away with that in court?????? Are you serious? Exactly! If a company makes a mistake, fixing the error has to be "proportional." There are cases with real faults—for example, when the wiring for electric shutters is missing at the house handover. But it’s not reasonable to tear everything up again, so the customer was refunded the cost of the electric shutters, and that was it (no compensation or anything else).
Anyone who wants to ensure that what they bought matches what they ordered also has to take responsibility for inspections. For a "professional" (as he calls himself), it would have been easy to recognize the difference in the cables and to raise a complaint in time! That doesn’t excuse the mistake, but exchanging them before the screed was poured would have made things much easier.
Empty conduit and DIN standards: Just because something is stated in any DIN standard doesn’t mean anyone has to comply with it—unless you have contractually agreed that the DIN standard must be followed. That, too, could have been reported and corrected before plastering or screed work. Now it’s too late, especially since one cable is usually sufficient for all applications. With a switch, you can theoretically connect an unlimited number of devices.
Hi,
This is somewhat off-topic, but:
DIN standards do not actually have any legally binding status. However, they are regarded as the general state of the art and indicate how a product should look according to expert opinion.
In other words, if a craftsman/manufacturer/anyone follows the DIN standard, they are safe regarding liability and defects. If they don’t comply, they must prove that their method is technically sound and not responsible for any defects.
So, deviations are allowed, but the person deviating must take responsibility.
In the case of LAN cables installed in concealed conduits, it will be difficult to prove that the installation is free of faults. Partly because the cables can no longer be replaced (which, however, is quite common with LAN cables due to technical progress), and even more so because LAN cables must not be crushed. If the cables have been fastened neatly using those “concealed wiring nails,” they are indeed crushed!
Long story short, with LAN cables installed under plaster, you very likely do not have a correct, fault-free installation!
But first, the original poster needs to clarify exactly what was agreed and, above all: Are the cables installed in empty conduits or directly under plaster?
Best regards,
Andreas
Payday schrieb:
empty conduit and DIN: just because something is stated in a DIN standard doesn’t mean anyone has to follow it. Unless, of course, you have agreed that this DIN must be contractually complied with.
This is somewhat off-topic, but:
DIN standards do not actually have any legally binding status. However, they are regarded as the general state of the art and indicate how a product should look according to expert opinion.
In other words, if a craftsman/manufacturer/anyone follows the DIN standard, they are safe regarding liability and defects. If they don’t comply, they must prove that their method is technically sound and not responsible for any defects.
So, deviations are allowed, but the person deviating must take responsibility.
In the case of LAN cables installed in concealed conduits, it will be difficult to prove that the installation is free of faults. Partly because the cables can no longer be replaced (which, however, is quite common with LAN cables due to technical progress), and even more so because LAN cables must not be crushed. If the cables have been fastened neatly using those “concealed wiring nails,” they are indeed crushed!
Long story short, with LAN cables installed under plaster, you very likely do not have a correct, fault-free installation!
But first, the original poster needs to clarify exactly what was agreed and, above all: Are the cables installed in empty conduits or directly under plaster?
Best regards,
Andreas
First of all, it must be proven that the network cable was installed incorrectly. Claiming something and expecting the other party to prove the opposite does not make sense.
Anyway, if plaster is applied over it and the conduit is installed without continuous runs, compensation would be a modest low three-digit amount or something else on the "low" side.
Anyway, if plaster is applied over it and the conduit is installed without continuous runs, compensation would be a modest low three-digit amount or something else on the "low" side.
[I am not very familiar with this topic.
As I understand it, it was verbally agreed (and presumably discussed with the site manager) that double sockets should be installed. However, only single sockets were recorded in writing. At least, that is how I interpret this post.
The electrician likely followed the written order.
The site manager verbally confirmed the defect to you.
If the construction company insists on the written agreement, in my opinion, the chances of getting the defect fixed are rather low. I don’t know if the site manager’s memory (as an employee of the company) is still reliable in such a case.
What I mean is: from my point of view, it comes down to goodwill. The site manager is aware that a mistake was made. But according to the contract, the work was done "correctly." So the site manager will probably try to resolve this on a goodwill basis (as long as it doesn’t involve a very large effort). If you push too hard (for instance, requesting major work like opening walls and redoing wiring), the goodwill might disappear.
That said, it is possible that I misunderstood the initial post, or that the contract only mentions "socket," and the type of socket is defined elsewhere.]
@andimann
As I already wrote above – I find it hard to assess.
But according to what the OP stated, the contract only specifies one socket, not a double socket. He assumed it meant the double socket he wanted (and that had been discussed).
If only ONE socket is written in the contract, then the contract is fulfilled. (Between business partners, verbal agreements also count as contracts – but between private persons and businesses, only written agreements are binding, if I’m not mistaken.)
This is not to say that the builder won’t be reasonable or cooperative – after all, these construction projects partly rely on recommendations. But if you come in with a heavy-handed approach (e.g., insisting “you MUST open walls and rewire”), the company may decide, based on cost and benefit, to simply walk away.]
Incorrect: the double socket was documented twice in writing in the offer, while only a single socket was shown in the plans. I wasn’t able to find out if empty conduits were installed – I only have photos taken before the sockets were installed and the current status.
Regarding professional expertise: When I see a huge bundle of cables at the distribution board, I don’t inspect or count each cable. I checked to make sure that no low-quality cables were used, only proper network cables. I didn’t pay attention to the number of cables because I did not want or could not open the bundle (they were cable-tied).
To clarify again: The double network sockets were confirmed in writing - the plans only showed one socket, and I assumed that was a double socket. I also pointed this out during the electrical fixtures selection – the typical response from the electrician was “yeah, yeah… you know how it goes 😉”
According to the site manager, the cable cannot be pulled through again; I assume the empty conduits are full (power, antenna, electricity).
Therefore, the explicit question: How severe is the damage? I believe it should hurt the construction company just as much as it has hurt me – full refund.
As I understand it, it was verbally agreed (and presumably discussed with the site manager) that double sockets should be installed. However, only single sockets were recorded in writing. At least, that is how I interpret this post.
The electrician likely followed the written order.
The site manager verbally confirmed the defect to you.
If the construction company insists on the written agreement, in my opinion, the chances of getting the defect fixed are rather low. I don’t know if the site manager’s memory (as an employee of the company) is still reliable in such a case.
What I mean is: from my point of view, it comes down to goodwill. The site manager is aware that a mistake was made. But according to the contract, the work was done "correctly." So the site manager will probably try to resolve this on a goodwill basis (as long as it doesn’t involve a very large effort). If you push too hard (for instance, requesting major work like opening walls and redoing wiring), the goodwill might disappear.
That said, it is possible that I misunderstood the initial post, or that the contract only mentions "socket," and the type of socket is defined elsewhere.]
@andimann
As I already wrote above – I find it hard to assess.
But according to what the OP stated, the contract only specifies one socket, not a double socket. He assumed it meant the double socket he wanted (and that had been discussed).
If only ONE socket is written in the contract, then the contract is fulfilled. (Between business partners, verbal agreements also count as contracts – but between private persons and businesses, only written agreements are binding, if I’m not mistaken.)
This is not to say that the builder won’t be reasonable or cooperative – after all, these construction projects partly rely on recommendations. But if you come in with a heavy-handed approach (e.g., insisting “you MUST open walls and rewire”), the company may decide, based on cost and benefit, to simply walk away.]
Incorrect: the double socket was documented twice in writing in the offer, while only a single socket was shown in the plans. I wasn’t able to find out if empty conduits were installed – I only have photos taken before the sockets were installed and the current status.
Regarding professional expertise: When I see a huge bundle of cables at the distribution board, I don’t inspect or count each cable. I checked to make sure that no low-quality cables were used, only proper network cables. I didn’t pay attention to the number of cables because I did not want or could not open the bundle (they were cable-tied).
To clarify again: The double network sockets were confirmed in writing - the plans only showed one socket, and I assumed that was a double socket. I also pointed this out during the electrical fixtures selection – the typical response from the electrician was “yeah, yeah… you know how it goes 😉”
According to the site manager, the cable cannot be pulled through again; I assume the empty conduits are full (power, antenna, electricity).
Therefore, the explicit question: How severe is the damage? I believe it should hurt the construction company just as much as it has hurt me – full refund.
Hi,
if the double wall boxes are explicitly fixed in writing in the contract, then double wall boxes must be installed. End of discussion.
LAN cables must not be installed together with power cables in the same conduit due to potential interference. If they did that, I would ask the site manager what kind of amateur crew he has on site.
Although such incompetence should definitely be penalized and I would fully support that, you probably won’t be able to get a full refund. The network cables are there (by the way: have you tested if they actually work?), so the damage is not total. I think a reduction to one-third of the price would be appropriate—so paying 330 Euro instead of 1000. After all, they only delivered half the service (if the conduits are now actually full, that means they should have installed twice as many. And you paid for that!) and now you have to buy additional switches, etc.
Best regards,
Andreas
if the double wall boxes are explicitly fixed in writing in the contract, then double wall boxes must be installed. End of discussion.
LAN cables must not be installed together with power cables in the same conduit due to potential interference. If they did that, I would ask the site manager what kind of amateur crew he has on site.
Although such incompetence should definitely be penalized and I would fully support that, you probably won’t be able to get a full refund. The network cables are there (by the way: have you tested if they actually work?), so the damage is not total. I think a reduction to one-third of the price would be appropriate—so paying 330 Euro instead of 1000. After all, they only delivered half the service (if the conduits are now actually full, that means they should have installed twice as many. And you paid for that!) and now you have to buy additional switches, etc.
Best regards,
Andreas
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