ᐅ Multi-family Building: Placement of Residential Units, Trees, and Other Elements
Created on: 11 Aug 2014 13:57
R
Reiner_1978
Hello.
I am considering a plot of land and have the following questions:
1. A multi-family house is planned to be built. Are there any regulations regarding how the individual residential units must be arranged within the building? I want to build something like a townhouse with an additional unit above (so three units in total; just not stacked directly on top of each other).
2. There are trees on the property, unfortunately in the area where parking spaces could be located. I see hardly any other options. Is it possible to obtain tree removal permits (the trees are protected by a tree protection ordinance)?
3. On the development plan, there is a feature marked that I cannot identify. It is an irregular "path" with a checkered pattern, see attached.
Thank you very much for your help.
Reiner_1978
I am considering a plot of land and have the following questions:
1. A multi-family house is planned to be built. Are there any regulations regarding how the individual residential units must be arranged within the building? I want to build something like a townhouse with an additional unit above (so three units in total; just not stacked directly on top of each other).
2. There are trees on the property, unfortunately in the area where parking spaces could be located. I see hardly any other options. Is it possible to obtain tree removal permits (the trees are protected by a tree protection ordinance)?
3. On the development plan, there is a feature marked that I cannot identify. It is an irregular "path" with a checkered pattern, see attached.
Thank you very much for your help.
Reiner_1978
R
Reiner_197815 Aug 2014 11:31Bauexperte schrieb:
I’m sure you wouldn’t want to live in these houses...
Regards, Bauexperte800,000 euros is not feasible for me... Not yet... 🙂
What do you think the builder intends to charge me?
I have estimates from two companies in this range (425,000 and 450,000 euros).
B
Bauexperte15 Aug 2014 11:44Hello,
A multi-family house according to their building specifications?
What do I know; look into the building specifications, compare them, and choose the provider that seems best suited for your construction project.
Regards, Bauexperte
Reiner_1978 schrieb:
What do you think the contractor wants to build for me there?
I have this price range from 2 companies (€425,000 and €450,000).
A multi-family house according to their building specifications?
What do I know; look into the building specifications, compare them, and choose the provider that seems best suited for your construction project.
Regards, Bauexperte
R
Reiner_197815 Aug 2014 13:40Hi.
I wanted to use the forum to avoid looking completely clueless in front of the experts and to double-check the offer.
That means, of course, I have relevant contacts that I can also ask.
Since I was nearly about to throw these house plans overboard, I spoke with one of my "clients."
He has been an architect for 25 years and has built all kinds of projects, from single-family homes to government bunkers.
He told me that the statements from the contractors are realistic.
However, it is also possible to reach a price of 800,000 euros ($) if, among other things, you want a photovoltaic system, an unusual building design, and a luxury standard.
Still, thanks again.
P.S.
I just wanted to know how many hours the architect typically spends on a project like this.
I’m not trying to negotiate on the price.
I wanted to use the forum to avoid looking completely clueless in front of the experts and to double-check the offer.
That means, of course, I have relevant contacts that I can also ask.
Since I was nearly about to throw these house plans overboard, I spoke with one of my "clients."
He has been an architect for 25 years and has built all kinds of projects, from single-family homes to government bunkers.
He told me that the statements from the contractors are realistic.
However, it is also possible to reach a price of 800,000 euros ($) if, among other things, you want a photovoltaic system, an unusual building design, and a luxury standard.
Still, thanks again.
P.S.
I just wanted to know how many hours the architect typically spends on a project like this.
I’m not trying to negotiate on the price.
B
Bauexperte15 Aug 2014 14:27Hello Reiner,
That’s why I replied to you; as well as to many other users here, by the way. You just simply do not believe that the numbers I presented could reflect reality. You only need to read the forum here—in comparable threads—not a few users have confirmed my estimates within plus/minus €5,000-10,000.
Then do so, and you will have all the information you need to prepare for a conversation.
Architects tend to have the “bad” habit—depending on one’s point of view—of not providing fixed prices; projects are often poorly estimated in the first and sometimes the second phase. It is not uncommon that near the end of construction, a significantly higher figure appears as total costs than initially estimated. This is quite unfortunate for any kind of follow-up financing, if that is even possible. For example, I “know” only one user here on the forum whose final figures matched those originally projected by their architect. This means the user had a really good architect, one who seems to come from real-world experience; unfortunately, that is rather the exception.
The estimated price I provided includes a section of the house with two maisonette apartments (semi-detached house character) and one apartment on the third floor spanning both halves (you didn’t want a typical multi-family box). Additionally, a flat roof, mineral exterior plaster, KfW 70 efficiency house standard, and medium quality including painting work and flooring. After you named your building location, I roughly calculated with €1,700.00/sqm (square meter) of living space, which fits quite well for that region. I know this pretty well, as I sometimes like to refer interested parties to a former colleague now working independently in Dortmund. I myself—before this question arises—work only in the Rhineland region, as I accompany projects until move-in and often beyond.
Maisonette or not, either way you get 450 sqm (4,844 sq ft) of floor area, and that needs to be paid for. These three apartments require— for example—at least four staircases as well as adequate technical installations like a suitable heat generator and ventilation systems; two apartments are to be rented out. One thing leads to another, and suddenly you have a solid 7-figure sum at the bottom line—and that’s without mentioning additional construction-related costs or a contingency for one or another extra request.
A photovoltaic system with 10.29 kWp and 5.6 kW household battery storage would cost around €22,000 for your planned project, although I’m not sure if the sizing is sufficient, and knowing that battery prices are currently dropping. BUT this is not yet included in my estimate.
Whether Villeroy & Boch or Keramag sanitary installations, Gira or Busch-Jaeger electrical fittings already count as luxury depends on personal opinion; I would say no. However, I am convinced that our specification is nothing to be ashamed of, the same goes for the contractual terms, payment plan, and various securities we offer our builders.
You asked in an earlier post what I think is included in the offers you have. Well—aside from really not having a crystal ball—the offer certainly reflects the respective construction description; even budget builders don’t just give things away. Of course, it can always be cheaper. It’s entirely up to you whether you want to be satisfied with your investment property in the long run or be disappointed after the first year’s operating cost statement—just to name one example. It’s the supposed “little things,” such as 240 mm (9.5 inches) of insulation or windows with 7-chamber profiles, that ultimately make the difference, even if laypeople often ignore them. Maybe everything will be fine; maybe the disappointment only comes when the supposed return property is put up for sale...
Did you ask this question to your client?
Wishing you much success as always,
with kind regards from the Rhineland
Reiner_1978 schrieb:
I wanted to use the forum so I wouldn’t look clueless in front of the experts.
And to double-check the offer.
That’s why I replied to you; as well as to many other users here, by the way. You just simply do not believe that the numbers I presented could reflect reality. You only need to read the forum here—in comparable threads—not a few users have confirmed my estimates within plus/minus €5,000-10,000.
Reiner_1978 schrieb:
I mean, of course, I have the right contacts that I can ask.
Then do so, and you will have all the information you need to prepare for a conversation.
Reiner_1978 schrieb:
He has been an architect for 25 years. Has built all kinds of projects—from single-family houses to government bunkers.
He told me the builders’ statements are realistic.
But a price of €800,000 can also be achieved 🙂 if, among other things, you want a photovoltaic system, an unusual building shape, and a luxurious standard.
Architects tend to have the “bad” habit—depending on one’s point of view—of not providing fixed prices; projects are often poorly estimated in the first and sometimes the second phase. It is not uncommon that near the end of construction, a significantly higher figure appears as total costs than initially estimated. This is quite unfortunate for any kind of follow-up financing, if that is even possible. For example, I “know” only one user here on the forum whose final figures matched those originally projected by their architect. This means the user had a really good architect, one who seems to come from real-world experience; unfortunately, that is rather the exception.
The estimated price I provided includes a section of the house with two maisonette apartments (semi-detached house character) and one apartment on the third floor spanning both halves (you didn’t want a typical multi-family box). Additionally, a flat roof, mineral exterior plaster, KfW 70 efficiency house standard, and medium quality including painting work and flooring. After you named your building location, I roughly calculated with €1,700.00/sqm (square meter) of living space, which fits quite well for that region. I know this pretty well, as I sometimes like to refer interested parties to a former colleague now working independently in Dortmund. I myself—before this question arises—work only in the Rhineland region, as I accompany projects until move-in and often beyond.
Maisonette or not, either way you get 450 sqm (4,844 sq ft) of floor area, and that needs to be paid for. These three apartments require— for example—at least four staircases as well as adequate technical installations like a suitable heat generator and ventilation systems; two apartments are to be rented out. One thing leads to another, and suddenly you have a solid 7-figure sum at the bottom line—and that’s without mentioning additional construction-related costs or a contingency for one or another extra request.
A photovoltaic system with 10.29 kWp and 5.6 kW household battery storage would cost around €22,000 for your planned project, although I’m not sure if the sizing is sufficient, and knowing that battery prices are currently dropping. BUT this is not yet included in my estimate.
Whether Villeroy & Boch or Keramag sanitary installations, Gira or Busch-Jaeger electrical fittings already count as luxury depends on personal opinion; I would say no. However, I am convinced that our specification is nothing to be ashamed of, the same goes for the contractual terms, payment plan, and various securities we offer our builders.
You asked in an earlier post what I think is included in the offers you have. Well—aside from really not having a crystal ball—the offer certainly reflects the respective construction description; even budget builders don’t just give things away. Of course, it can always be cheaper. It’s entirely up to you whether you want to be satisfied with your investment property in the long run or be disappointed after the first year’s operating cost statement—just to name one example. It’s the supposed “little things,” such as 240 mm (9.5 inches) of insulation or windows with 7-chamber profiles, that ultimately make the difference, even if laypeople often ignore them. Maybe everything will be fine; maybe the disappointment only comes when the supposed return property is put up for sale...
Reiner_1978 schrieb:
I simply wanted to know how many hours the architect works on a project like this.
I am not trying to negotiate the price there.
Did you ask this question to your client?
Wishing you much success as always,
with kind regards from the Rhineland
R
Reiner_197815 Aug 2014 15:20No, I didn’t ask that question.
I only received the following information:
If I have it done through his own company, the costs for project management are included in the price of 450,000 euros.
What you wrote sounds correct. I don’t doubt that.
And maybe I will actually have problems with the structure sometime.
But I also know that 255,000 euros for 140 sqm (1,506 sqft) of living space is enormous. (I simply divided 765,000 euros by 3.)
That would mean you couldn’t get a house with a 300 sqm (3,229 sqft) plot and 140 sqm (1,506 sqft) living space plus a basement (turnkey including landscaping) for under 320,000 euros. Or put differently: All around me, there are cheap houses going for 240,000 euros.
Maybe I’m wrong, but right now I trust the architect.
And the building cost calculator reassures me a bit. Even if I push everything to the top (solid construction, high-end fittings, many windows), it comes to 488,000 euros.
I know you don’t think much of the calculator.
Best regards
Reiner
I only received the following information:
If I have it done through his own company, the costs for project management are included in the price of 450,000 euros.
What you wrote sounds correct. I don’t doubt that.
And maybe I will actually have problems with the structure sometime.
But I also know that 255,000 euros for 140 sqm (1,506 sqft) of living space is enormous. (I simply divided 765,000 euros by 3.)
That would mean you couldn’t get a house with a 300 sqm (3,229 sqft) plot and 140 sqm (1,506 sqft) living space plus a basement (turnkey including landscaping) for under 320,000 euros. Or put differently: All around me, there are cheap houses going for 240,000 euros.
Maybe I’m wrong, but right now I trust the architect.
And the building cost calculator reassures me a bit. Even if I push everything to the top (solid construction, high-end fittings, many windows), it comes to 488,000 euros.
I know you don’t think much of the calculator.
Best regards
Reiner
R
Reiner_197817 Aug 2014 11:15Hello Reiner,
First of all, thank you for the detailed explanation. Your reasoning is completely understandable, and I can see why you question these amounts. Construction costs have risen significantly in recent years, and what was possible for 240,000 € in the past is now rarely achievable—especially with the standard you want. Your example calculation of 255,000 € per house naturally assumes that all costs are allocated correctly, but different standards and levels of equipment are often compared. A turnkey solid construction house with a basement and complete outdoor facilities today often realistically costs well above that 240,000 €, depending on the region, especially since high-end finishes, numerous windows, and solid construction methods increase the price.
Often, apparent “bargains” on the market mean compromises in quality, size, workmanship, or features when looking more closely—for example, basements, high-quality facades, terraces, paved areas, or finished gardens are often missing. Some low-cost providers also calculate with owner participation or very basic standards or offer shell houses that only become complete through a lot of owner work and additional expenses. That is why it is important not only to consider the raw price per square meter but always to compare the total scope of services included in the offers.
Online construction cost calculators, like the one you used, provide a rough guideline for an initial overview. However, they necessarily remain at a general level and hardly take into account individual factors such as regional building costs, plot specifics, or concrete personal requirements. For custom designs and upscale finishes, the calculated amounts often do not exactly reflect the real cost structure of your project. Still, the calculator can support you in confirming that your price expectation is not an outlier when values around 488,000 € result even with generous assumptions.
It is good and important that you trust your architect, as they are responsible for planning and efficient execution. Experienced planners know well the levers for cost savings or at least for transparency. Nevertheless, it is never wrong to seek independent information, compare offers, and if necessary consult an independent expert or building surveyor who can provide a second opinion. That costs a little but provides security.
The prices you mention already fall within the normal to upper range in many regions for a solidly built house with a basement and external facilities—so by no means in a luxury segment. More economical houses are built at significantly lower costs but almost always without basements, distinctive architecture, or high-end features. In the end, your decision should be based mainly on whether you can understand the planned services and their prices and continue to coordinate with the architect—so you can potentially make adjustments. A detailed cost plan and a written, detailed offer will always help you the most.
First of all, thank you for the detailed explanation. Your reasoning is completely understandable, and I can see why you question these amounts. Construction costs have risen significantly in recent years, and what was possible for 240,000 € in the past is now rarely achievable—especially with the standard you want. Your example calculation of 255,000 € per house naturally assumes that all costs are allocated correctly, but different standards and levels of equipment are often compared. A turnkey solid construction house with a basement and complete outdoor facilities today often realistically costs well above that 240,000 €, depending on the region, especially since high-end finishes, numerous windows, and solid construction methods increase the price.
Often, apparent “bargains” on the market mean compromises in quality, size, workmanship, or features when looking more closely—for example, basements, high-quality facades, terraces, paved areas, or finished gardens are often missing. Some low-cost providers also calculate with owner participation or very basic standards or offer shell houses that only become complete through a lot of owner work and additional expenses. That is why it is important not only to consider the raw price per square meter but always to compare the total scope of services included in the offers.
Online construction cost calculators, like the one you used, provide a rough guideline for an initial overview. However, they necessarily remain at a general level and hardly take into account individual factors such as regional building costs, plot specifics, or concrete personal requirements. For custom designs and upscale finishes, the calculated amounts often do not exactly reflect the real cost structure of your project. Still, the calculator can support you in confirming that your price expectation is not an outlier when values around 488,000 € result even with generous assumptions.
It is good and important that you trust your architect, as they are responsible for planning and efficient execution. Experienced planners know well the levers for cost savings or at least for transparency. Nevertheless, it is never wrong to seek independent information, compare offers, and if necessary consult an independent expert or building surveyor who can provide a second opinion. That costs a little but provides security.
The prices you mention already fall within the normal to upper range in many regions for a solidly built house with a basement and external facilities—so by no means in a luxury segment. More economical houses are built at significantly lower costs but almost always without basements, distinctive architecture, or high-end features. In the end, your decision should be based mainly on whether you can understand the planned services and their prices and continue to coordinate with the architect—so you can potentially make adjustments. A detailed cost plan and a written, detailed offer will always help you the most.
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