ᐅ Kitchen Planning for Renovation: Question About Window and Appliances
Created on: 10 Sep 2023 01:47
M
Mal Bauen
Hello everyone,
as part of our house building planning (see: https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/grundriss-neubau-auf-bungalow-bestandskeller-1-5-geschossige.44686/) we are currently focusing on the kitchen.
On the ground floor (see floor plans https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/grundriss-neubau-auf-bungalow-bestandskeller-1-5-geschossige.44686/post-631246) we are planning a kitchen wall unit plus a cooking island. We already received a quote from a kitchen studio for this. We removed 3-4 wall cabinets in our subsequent SH3D self-planning (see attachment), but the offer still roughly fits:
- induction cooktop + recirculation hood: Bora PURU (~2300€)
- oven: AEG BPK435060M (~850€)
- dishwasher: Siemens SX63H800BE (720€)
- side-by-side refrigerator, chairs, dining table not included
- base cabinets with drawers/pull-outs
- cooking island 2.1 x 1.2m (7ft x 4ft) with cutout for a column (structurally necessary)
- including installation, 5-year warranty
- 23,000€ (estimated about 21,500€ with the current design and fewer wall cabinets)
Overall, we are happy with the design: We have plenty of space, lots of storage, and easy workflows ...
Nevertheless, we have a few questions and would appreciate if anyone could support us here:
Thank you very much!
as part of our house building planning (see: https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/grundriss-neubau-auf-bungalow-bestandskeller-1-5-geschossige.44686/) we are currently focusing on the kitchen.
On the ground floor (see floor plans https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/grundriss-neubau-auf-bungalow-bestandskeller-1-5-geschossige.44686/post-631246) we are planning a kitchen wall unit plus a cooking island. We already received a quote from a kitchen studio for this. We removed 3-4 wall cabinets in our subsequent SH3D self-planning (see attachment), but the offer still roughly fits:
- induction cooktop + recirculation hood: Bora PURU (~2300€)
- oven: AEG BPK435060M (~850€)
- dishwasher: Siemens SX63H800BE (720€)
- side-by-side refrigerator, chairs, dining table not included
- base cabinets with drawers/pull-outs
- cooking island 2.1 x 1.2m (7ft x 4ft) with cutout for a column (structurally necessary)
- including installation, 5-year warranty
- 23,000€ (estimated about 21,500€ with the current design and fewer wall cabinets)
Overall, we are happy with the design: We have plenty of space, lots of storage, and easy workflows ...
Nevertheless, we have a few questions and would appreciate if anyone could support us here:
- Does anyone have experience (positive or negative) with the mentioned electrical appliances?
- Could it make sense to remove the appliances from the offer? The installation of appliances purchased separately by the kitchen studio costs 85€ per appliance, but then the 5-year warranty is lost. The advantage: I have a wider selection of brands (for example, cooktops are only offered by Bora and Neff) and if lucky, you might get a good deal.
- We would like a large window above the sink (1km (0.62 miles) clear view of greenery in that direction). Ideally, this window would be uninterrupted by a mullion. With the size we have in mind, it will be difficult to realize such a window with an opening tilt or swivel function. So it will probably be fixed glazing. Do you see the missing ventilation function as a critical issue? Although a controlled ventilation system is planned, there is still quite a bit of steam generated right at the sink. Additionally, the seating window at the top left of the plan will also be fixed glazed...
- For ergonomic reasons, we have placed the dishwasher at a raised height. Because of this, it is very close to the bench/seating window area. We fear that loading the dishwasher will cause a lot of dripping (for example, when placing not completely empty coffee cups upside down in the upper rack) and that the upholstery/cushions/surfaces of the bench below will suffer. Does anyone have experience with the “dripping” risk around raised dishwashers?
- Do you consider the quoted price reasonable?
- Are there any general tips or suggestions for improvement regarding room layout, ergonomics, or design...?
Thank you very much!
M
Mal Bauen17 Sep 2023 01:38The DIY floor plan from the initial post is currently the most accurately dimensioned version I can offer for the kitchen area, @evelinoz
Alternatively, attached is the official ground floor plan with some measurements.
Yes, that’s true, it becomes tricky at this height. The coffee machine will probably be placed next to the column.
I wasn’t aware of the appliance cabinet concept, and it actually sounds like a great idea for our kitchen machine, which is only used occasionally. The positioning of the cabinet and worktop then needs to make practical sense. In our current kitchen layout, integration is a bit more challenging.
Besides that, today’s two-hour visit to the kitchen showroom spoiled us with many new ideas. We will receive a new offer/plan over the coming week…
Alternatively, attached is the official ground floor plan with some measurements.
ypg schrieb:
Exactly, refilling beans might still be possible, but emptying the water tray is just not feasible.
Yes, that’s true, it becomes tricky at this height. The coffee machine will probably be placed next to the column.
I wasn’t aware of the appliance cabinet concept, and it actually sounds like a great idea for our kitchen machine, which is only used occasionally. The positioning of the cabinet and worktop then needs to make practical sense. In our current kitchen layout, integration is a bit more challenging.
Besides that, today’s two-hour visit to the kitchen showroom spoiled us with many new ideas. We will receive a new offer/plan over the coming week…
Mal Bauen schrieb:
The window seat was mainly included as a fun feature, especially for the children. And maybe for the adults to enjoy the view of nature with their coffee on Sunday mornings. Mal Bauen schrieb:
The view to the east is by far the nicest. I somehow don’t understand the layout. Only the person who occasionally works around the sink, and mostly looks at the countertop, gets to enjoy the view. Those sitting at the window seat row don’t, they face the cabinets instead. And then there are supposed to be additional seats on the rear side of the island?
Why do only a few people get to enjoy the view now and then, but no one can during meals?
Why is the utility room (function?) located exactly where the view is?
M
Mal Bauen17 Sep 2023 17:15Since several concepts have been discussed in the thread, I need to ask again which specific post you are referring to?
The utility room is structurally part of the existing building. There used to be a small kitchenette in it. Due to insulation measures, the room will shrink a bit further. We currently envision the utility room as a small private office and storage space for cleaning supplies, vacuum cleaner, beverage crates, etc.
The utility room is structurally part of the existing building. There used to be a small kitchenette in it. Due to insulation measures, the room will shrink a bit further. We currently envision the utility room as a small private office and storage space for cleaning supplies, vacuum cleaner, beverage crates, etc.
Basically the entire layout of the ground floor and upper floor. I am referring to the floor plan linked in your first post in this thread.
Setting aside what is current or not, and I understand why you want to tear down and rebuild on the cellar, but why in this way? By that I mean the usual open-plan space, a rectangle with kitchen/dining/sofa in a row, as is done in every other house. In the other forum, I can’t write more or I’ll get a warning, someone is currently struggling exactly with planning a functional kitchen.
If I look at the existing plan, it offers better usable rooms, assuming the household will be five people. If I simply use the room dimensions from that plan, extend the bay window on the left side as a rectangle, only on the ground floor (regardless of whether this is feasible or not).
According to the plan, the existing kitchen is 240cm (94 inches) wide, ideal for a galley kitchen.
On the left side of the plan, to the east, there could be a very large panoramic window with a bench running across the full width, and in front of it, the dining table. The kitchen would also have a wider window, partly for the view.
The kitchen would then wrap around the corner on both sides, with a right-hand countertop area for breakfast items, and on the left, storage—low, medium or tall cabinets, depending on what is needed.
The patio door as existing, possibly wider, and the other windows remain as they are.
Although not the topic of this thread, there is no proper cloakroom for five people; shoes, bags, backpacks, strollers—all lie on the floor. But this has probably been discussed already. My daughter had an old house with 250m2 (2700 sq ft), everything great, but there was no decent cloakroom. Chaos at the entrance.
What is the latest status for the upper floor?
The existing floor plan simply offers more options; you can spread out, not sit five people cramped together, hear kitchen noise, screaming kids, toys scattered on the floor. Kitchens with stone countertops can be very loud—you have to get used to it. I don’t want to see kitchen chaos from the couch every day. We have about 70m2 (750 sq ft) of open living space, roughly like in your new plan, also 13m (43 feet), but the room is not rectangular and is divided into areas by two partial walls. I can watch a movie at one end; my partner can watch the Tour de France at the other. And there are no doors.
Also, I would carefully consider whether a wood stove, in any form, still makes sense today. I think for the transition seasons, an air conditioning unit (inverter, split system) with reverse cycle for the open living space is more practical. Then you also have something for hot days. The devices use relatively little electricity, require no work, and create no mess. We replaced our 20-year-old unit and could hardly believe how much better and cheaper the new one is (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries).
Regarding kitchen planning: in, let’s say, a specialized forum, it can be planned better because, as here with floor planning, there is a checklist. Without that, it is only half done because you don’t know enough.
Setting aside what is current or not, and I understand why you want to tear down and rebuild on the cellar, but why in this way? By that I mean the usual open-plan space, a rectangle with kitchen/dining/sofa in a row, as is done in every other house. In the other forum, I can’t write more or I’ll get a warning, someone is currently struggling exactly with planning a functional kitchen.
If I look at the existing plan, it offers better usable rooms, assuming the household will be five people. If I simply use the room dimensions from that plan, extend the bay window on the left side as a rectangle, only on the ground floor (regardless of whether this is feasible or not).
According to the plan, the existing kitchen is 240cm (94 inches) wide, ideal for a galley kitchen.
On the left side of the plan, to the east, there could be a very large panoramic window with a bench running across the full width, and in front of it, the dining table. The kitchen would also have a wider window, partly for the view.
The kitchen would then wrap around the corner on both sides, with a right-hand countertop area for breakfast items, and on the left, storage—low, medium or tall cabinets, depending on what is needed.
The patio door as existing, possibly wider, and the other windows remain as they are.
Although not the topic of this thread, there is no proper cloakroom for five people; shoes, bags, backpacks, strollers—all lie on the floor. But this has probably been discussed already. My daughter had an old house with 250m2 (2700 sq ft), everything great, but there was no decent cloakroom. Chaos at the entrance.
What is the latest status for the upper floor?
The existing floor plan simply offers more options; you can spread out, not sit five people cramped together, hear kitchen noise, screaming kids, toys scattered on the floor. Kitchens with stone countertops can be very loud—you have to get used to it. I don’t want to see kitchen chaos from the couch every day. We have about 70m2 (750 sq ft) of open living space, roughly like in your new plan, also 13m (43 feet), but the room is not rectangular and is divided into areas by two partial walls. I can watch a movie at one end; my partner can watch the Tour de France at the other. And there are no doors.
Also, I would carefully consider whether a wood stove, in any form, still makes sense today. I think for the transition seasons, an air conditioning unit (inverter, split system) with reverse cycle for the open living space is more practical. Then you also have something for hot days. The devices use relatively little electricity, require no work, and create no mess. We replaced our 20-year-old unit and could hardly believe how much better and cheaper the new one is (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries).
Regarding kitchen planning: in, let’s say, a specialized forum, it can be planned better because, as here with floor planning, there is a checklist. Without that, it is only half done because you don’t know enough.
M
Mal Bauen19 Sep 2023 22:23Thank you @evelinoz for considering our plan and pointing out alternatives.
Even though some ideas go beyond the kitchen thread, I would like to address them.
At first, we considered partly extending the kitchen into the current utility room. Due to thicker exterior walls (increasing from 18cm to 42.5cm [7 inches to 17 inches]) and interior walls (the staircase to the basement is outside the thermal envelope and needs insulation), the clear room width is only about 2.10 to 2.20m (7 to 7.2 feet). For a “dead-end” kitchen, where passing by each other often happens, that felt too narrow, so we abandoned the utility room option.
If we had more width there, I would actually find your solution appealing. The obstructive pillar by the dining table might even be unnecessary thanks to the shorter ceiling span. At least, though, we do not want to fundamentally change the building volume anymore.
You are also right about the living/dining-kitchen zoning—it’s more difficult in a rectangular layout. We are still looking for a solution there (partition system or furniture). Basically, we hope the house, spread over 3-4 levels, will still offer enough private retreats for family members. At a certain age, children tend to avoid common areas and prefer their own rooms.
By installing built-in wardrobes under the stairs to the attic for shoes, jackets, etc., and using the shelf above the stairs, we hope to reduce the shortage of space here compared to what the floor plan suggests. This leaves about 6.5m² (70 sq ft) of free area without cabinets (including traffic routes).
The fireplace is also frequently a candidate for cancellation on our list. For us, nostalgia probably plays a bigger role than practical necessity. The climate system is interesting (also in terms of cost); we have not looked into it in detail yet. Do you use the reverse cycle of the air conditioner in addition to the regular heating system in winter for extra comfort? Where exactly do you place it?
If you like, you can show me your layout in the floor plan? Maybe you have already posted it here in the forum? I would be genuinely interested.
I can show you that (and everything else unrelated to the kitchen) in the floor plan thread.
Even though some ideas go beyond the kitchen thread, I would like to address them.
evelinoz schrieb:
According to the plan, the existing kitchen room is 240cm (95 inches) wide, ideal for a galley kitchen.
At first, we considered partly extending the kitchen into the current utility room. Due to thicker exterior walls (increasing from 18cm to 42.5cm [7 inches to 17 inches]) and interior walls (the staircase to the basement is outside the thermal envelope and needs insulation), the clear room width is only about 2.10 to 2.20m (7 to 7.2 feet). For a “dead-end” kitchen, where passing by each other often happens, that felt too narrow, so we abandoned the utility room option.
If we had more width there, I would actually find your solution appealing. The obstructive pillar by the dining table might even be unnecessary thanks to the shorter ceiling span. At least, though, we do not want to fundamentally change the building volume anymore.
You are also right about the living/dining-kitchen zoning—it’s more difficult in a rectangular layout. We are still looking for a solution there (partition system or furniture). Basically, we hope the house, spread over 3-4 levels, will still offer enough private retreats for family members. At a certain age, children tend to avoid common areas and prefer their own rooms.
evelinoz schrieb:
Although not the topic of this thread, there is no proper cloakroom for 5 people; shoes, bags, backpacks, and strollers are just lying on the floor. But this has surely been discussed already. My daughter had 250m² (almost 2700 sq ft) in her old house, everything was great except there was no decent cloakroom. Chaos at the front entrance.
By installing built-in wardrobes under the stairs to the attic for shoes, jackets, etc., and using the shelf above the stairs, we hope to reduce the shortage of space here compared to what the floor plan suggests. This leaves about 6.5m² (70 sq ft) of free area without cabinets (including traffic routes).
evelinoz schrieb:
I would also consider very carefully whether a wood stove in any form makes sense these days. I think for the transitional seasons, you get more benefit by installing an air conditioning system (inverter, split system) with reverse cycle for the open-plan living area.
The fireplace is also frequently a candidate for cancellation on our list. For us, nostalgia probably plays a bigger role than practical necessity. The climate system is interesting (also in terms of cost); we have not looked into it in detail yet. Do you use the reverse cycle of the air conditioner in addition to the regular heating system in winter for extra comfort? Where exactly do you place it?
evelinoz schrieb:
We have about 70m² (750 sq ft) of open-plan living area, similar to your new plan, also 13m (43 feet) long, but the room isn’t rectangular and is divided into areas by two partial walls.
If you like, you can show me your layout in the floor plan? Maybe you have already posted it here in the forum? I would be genuinely interested.
evelinoz schrieb:
What is the latest status for the upper floor?
I can show you that (and everything else unrelated to the kitchen) in the floor plan thread.
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