Hello,
after nearly a year of discussions with various companies and thorough research on prefabricated houses and solid construction, we decided on solid construction. Fortunately, we inherited the plot of land.
We now have a clear idea of what our dream home should look like (at least visually, which inspired our drawings):
- House type: urban villa
- Size: approx. 140 m² (1507 sq ft)
- many and especially large windows, corner glazing
- a system for controlled ventilation with heat recovery
With each conversation, we were able to narrow down the providers, and things are getting serious :-) We have an offer from a developer that suits us. He seems reliable, we’ve only heard good things about the company so far, the concept appears coherent, and the preliminary designs look good.
He has now provided us with an offer that basically includes all the work. The house will be delivered turnkey. Only the utility connections, insurance, and government fees will be added. Since we are very busy professionally, we deliberately decided against doing any work ourselves.
From the start, we set a budget limit of around 200,000 (with utility connections and additional costs, we expect to end up around 220,000).
We’ve heard about the KfW 70 (or even higher) standards... The developer calculated everything for us, and we ended up with the following options:
Offer 1:
KfW 70 standard including underfloor heating, air-to-water heat pump, controlled ventilation with heat recovery, fireplace connection
=> 230,000
Offer 2:
No KfW 70 standard, standard energy-saving regulation 2009, underfloor heating, controlled ventilation with heat recovery, fireplace connection, gas condensing boiler
=> 200,000
Offer 3:
No KfW 70 standard, standard energy-saving regulation 2009, underfloor heating, controlled ventilation with heat recovery, fireplace connection, air-to-water heat pump
=> 210,000
At first, we were attracted by the good conditions of the KfW 70 standard, but we realized that the interest rates are not much better than the current market. So, the subsidies would only save us around 5,000 EUR over the years. The additional investment for KfW 70 is significantly higher... No one can say exactly how much you save annually with KfW 70 compared to the 2009 energy-saving regulation. We have also been skeptical about solar systems so far, since they usually only pay off after many, many years (if at all).
I wanted to ask which option you would personally favor or what else we should consider!?
I appreciate any tips or advice.
Best regards,
Tim
after nearly a year of discussions with various companies and thorough research on prefabricated houses and solid construction, we decided on solid construction. Fortunately, we inherited the plot of land.
We now have a clear idea of what our dream home should look like (at least visually, which inspired our drawings):
- House type: urban villa
- Size: approx. 140 m² (1507 sq ft)
- many and especially large windows, corner glazing
- a system for controlled ventilation with heat recovery
With each conversation, we were able to narrow down the providers, and things are getting serious :-) We have an offer from a developer that suits us. He seems reliable, we’ve only heard good things about the company so far, the concept appears coherent, and the preliminary designs look good.
He has now provided us with an offer that basically includes all the work. The house will be delivered turnkey. Only the utility connections, insurance, and government fees will be added. Since we are very busy professionally, we deliberately decided against doing any work ourselves.
From the start, we set a budget limit of around 200,000 (with utility connections and additional costs, we expect to end up around 220,000).
We’ve heard about the KfW 70 (or even higher) standards... The developer calculated everything for us, and we ended up with the following options:
Offer 1:
KfW 70 standard including underfloor heating, air-to-water heat pump, controlled ventilation with heat recovery, fireplace connection
=> 230,000
Offer 2:
No KfW 70 standard, standard energy-saving regulation 2009, underfloor heating, controlled ventilation with heat recovery, fireplace connection, gas condensing boiler
=> 200,000
Offer 3:
No KfW 70 standard, standard energy-saving regulation 2009, underfloor heating, controlled ventilation with heat recovery, fireplace connection, air-to-water heat pump
=> 210,000
At first, we were attracted by the good conditions of the KfW 70 standard, but we realized that the interest rates are not much better than the current market. So, the subsidies would only save us around 5,000 EUR over the years. The additional investment for KfW 70 is significantly higher... No one can say exactly how much you save annually with KfW 70 compared to the 2009 energy-saving regulation. We have also been skeptical about solar systems so far, since they usually only pay off after many, many years (if at all).
I wanted to ask which option you would personally favor or what else we should consider!?
I appreciate any tips or advice.
Best regards,
Tim
P
perlenmann12 Oct 2011 07:31Everyone has a different opinion on this, but my view is: Start by looking at your current heating costs. You probably don’t have to meet energy efficiency regulations right now and your living area is smaller, right? So, roughly speaking, the heating cost will stay about the same, but with a larger area that is better insulated. KfW70 doesn’t mean no heating costs, just significantly lower ones. If you end up paying even less than that, however much it may be... how long will you need to save that difference to cover the additional 15,000 euros?
Just as a side note, the gas connection will add approximately 2,000 euros to the 200,000 euros for the sewer connection.
Just as a side note, the gas connection will add approximately 2,000 euros to the 200,000 euros for the sewer connection.
Hello!
I often see that home builders worry about small details like the heating system (I was the same), but don’t consider the major cost drivers. Of course, if you want everything to be standard and basic, that’s not a problem.
The “nice-to-haves” include:
- electric shutters/blinds
- LAN network
- satellite connection
- external combustion air supply
- triple glazing
- more expensive tiles/flooring
- terrace/patio
- garden
- fences/boundaries
- garage
- high-quality sanitary fixtures
- extensive electrical fittings
- of course, a new kitchen :p
- painting work
- front door!
- staircase!
As a result, our house looks great but became really expensive! Oh, and some changes were much more costly than expected – but increasing the living space by 20 meters (22 yards) only cost €5,000.
The highlight was: “We just need a little sand filled in.” €4,500!
Best regards,
TomTom1
I often see that home builders worry about small details like the heating system (I was the same), but don’t consider the major cost drivers. Of course, if you want everything to be standard and basic, that’s not a problem.
The “nice-to-haves” include:
- electric shutters/blinds
- LAN network
- satellite connection
- external combustion air supply
- triple glazing
- more expensive tiles/flooring
- terrace/patio
- garden
- fences/boundaries
- garage
- high-quality sanitary fixtures
- extensive electrical fittings
- of course, a new kitchen :p
- painting work
- front door!
- staircase!
As a result, our house looks great but became really expensive! Oh, and some changes were much more costly than expected – but increasing the living space by 20 meters (22 yards) only cost €5,000.
The highlight was: “We just need a little sand filled in.” €4,500!
Best regards,
TomTom1
TimB schrieb:
Now I wanted to ask you what you would personally prefer or what else should be considered…!?Hello Tim!To review your details, the quotation and the scope of work description would need to be checked. The offered different standards can certainly vary in quality (for example, thermal insulation standards). You haven’t provided any information on this.
For energy-efficient operation of the air-to-water heat pump, a well-insulated building envelope is essential above all. Temperature difference!
Which system is planned for the heat pump and for the mechanical ventilation with heat recovery in the apartment?
What are the U-values of the external components (roof, walls, slab/floor plate, windows, and doors)?
Is there a thermal performance certificate or energy calculation available for a comparable building from the manufacturer?
Best regards
T.H.
B
Bauexperte12 Oct 2011 12:02Hello Tim,
That won’t be enough for you, especially not with a foundation slab and certainly not with a basement. In this statement, I assume that your builder offers you high-quality materials for your house construction 🙂
To properly evaluate the offers, you therefore need more information, such as the building specification (Baubeschreibung), possibly additional agreements, and certainly the manufacturers’ data for the technical systems. In my last review of construction documents, it quickly became clear that appearances can be deceiving 🙁 Therefore, in the following, I assume a building envelope to KfW 70 standard, Daikin as the air-to-water heat pump, and a Tecalor TVZ for controlled ventilation with heat recovery; if the utility room is large enough, an integrated system combining air-to-water heat pump and controlled ventilation with heat recovery, also Tecalor, is conceivable (approximately 10,000 EUR (about 11,000 USD) without solar system and 13,000 EUR (about 14,200 USD) with solar system).
House around 220,000 EUR (about 240,000 USD) (the corner glazing, preferably across two floors, costs a lot of money, plus the external shading, which is also anything but cheap) plus air-to-water heat pump 5,000 EUR (about 5,500 USD), plus TVZ 9,000 EUR (about 9,800 USD), fireplace duct 3,000 EUR (about 3,300 USD); alternatively house plus integrated system 10,000 EUR (about 11,000 USD) or 13,000 EUR (about 14,200 USD).
Your house becomes a KfW efficiency house by having a well-insulated building envelope and one or possibly several shares of renewable energy; depending on whether it is KfW 70, 55, or below. At the very least, the building envelope should meet the KfW 70 standard; the best energy is the energy that is never needed! It’s not that expensive to realize KfW 70, provided the building envelope is right from the start.
One more urgent tip: 20,000 EUR (about 22,000 USD) for additional costs will not be enough; so plan at least 30,000 EUR (about 33,000 USD), preferably 35,000 EUR (about 38,500 USD) for this position, plus a buffer for extras like higher-quality sanitary fittings or a new kitchen 😉
Air-to-water heat pump => air-to-water heat pump
Heat recovery => heat recovery
Utility room => utility room
BB => building specification
TEUR => thousand euros
Kind regards
TimB schrieb:
From the start, we personally set a budget limit of around 200K. On top of that come the utility connections and additional costs, so we expect to settle at about 220K in the end.
That won’t be enough for you, especially not with a foundation slab and certainly not with a basement. In this statement, I assume that your builder offers you high-quality materials for your house construction 🙂
To properly evaluate the offers, you therefore need more information, such as the building specification (Baubeschreibung), possibly additional agreements, and certainly the manufacturers’ data for the technical systems. In my last review of construction documents, it quickly became clear that appearances can be deceiving 🙁 Therefore, in the following, I assume a building envelope to KfW 70 standard, Daikin as the air-to-water heat pump, and a Tecalor TVZ for controlled ventilation with heat recovery; if the utility room is large enough, an integrated system combining air-to-water heat pump and controlled ventilation with heat recovery, also Tecalor, is conceivable (approximately 10,000 EUR (about 11,000 USD) without solar system and 13,000 EUR (about 14,200 USD) with solar system).
TimB schrieb:
Offer 1:
KfW 70 standard with underfloor heating, air-to-water heat pump, controlled ventilation + heat recovery, fireplace connection
=> 230K
House around 220,000 EUR (about 240,000 USD) (the corner glazing, preferably across two floors, costs a lot of money, plus the external shading, which is also anything but cheap) plus air-to-water heat pump 5,000 EUR (about 5,500 USD), plus TVZ 9,000 EUR (about 9,800 USD), fireplace duct 3,000 EUR (about 3,300 USD); alternatively house plus integrated system 10,000 EUR (about 11,000 USD) or 13,000 EUR (about 14,200 USD).
TimB schrieb:
…The additional investment for KfW 70, however, is somewhat larger… Exactly what you ultimately save annually with KfW 70 compared to the Energy Saving Ordinance 2009 no one can say for sure…
Your house becomes a KfW efficiency house by having a well-insulated building envelope and one or possibly several shares of renewable energy; depending on whether it is KfW 70, 55, or below. At the very least, the building envelope should meet the KfW 70 standard; the best energy is the energy that is never needed! It’s not that expensive to realize KfW 70, provided the building envelope is right from the start.
One more urgent tip: 20,000 EUR (about 22,000 USD) for additional costs will not be enough; so plan at least 30,000 EUR (about 33,000 USD), preferably 35,000 EUR (about 38,500 USD) for this position, plus a buffer for extras like higher-quality sanitary fittings or a new kitchen 😉
Air-to-water heat pump => air-to-water heat pump
Heat recovery => heat recovery
Utility room => utility room
BB => building specification
TEUR => thousand euros
Kind regards
Hello,
First of all, thank you very much for your opinions. You’re right, I had only mentioned general things so far and no further details. I’ll try to make sense of the documents and post them here now :-)
The following notes/details were not included in the original post:
- Turnkey house (including painting, etc.) without basement, built on a slab-on-grade
- Exterior walls: 36.5cm (14 inches)
- Interior walls: 11.5cm (4.5 inches)
- Insulation for the entire house including attic according to Energy Saving Ordinance 2009
- Windows with insulated glazing (Ug 0.7)
- Window sills made of granite / Jura marble
- Wooden front door (approx. 2200 gross)
- Wooden staircase with railing
- Wall tiles 20x25cm (approx. 28 EUR gross)
- Floor tiles 20x20cm (approx. 34 EUR gross)
- Laminate flooring (approx. 22 EUR gross)
- Terrace (27 sqm (290 sq ft))
- Controlled ventilation system Bu derus Logavent HRV21
- If a heat pump is used, it would be the following model: LA 9TU (Dimpl ex)
- The level of fittings (heating, plumbing, floors) is upper mid-range; so we didn’t want luxury, but also not the cheapest option.
Not included in the offer:
- Exterior landscaping
- Garages
- Fireplace (only the connection and a two-flue chimney)
- Entrance platform
- Utility connections and fees for authorities
@perlenmann:
You’re right, we currently live in a 20-year-old house, windows are 15 years old, and insulation corresponds to the standard from 15 years ago... plus the apartment is smaller with 80 sqm (860 sq ft). Are there no websites or examples showing roughly what others consume with comparable houses built to KfW70, Energy Saving Ordinance 2009 standards, etc.? I have already included the utilities like gas in our additional costs of 20K.
@TomTom:
You are right, but we wanted to first set a budget (200K to 220K) to finance a turnkey house according to our wishes. The exterior landscaping, garage, etc. will come later, step by step :-)
SAT and LAN are included in the offer with 4 connections each, as well as the terrace.
Electric blinds are really nice, but we decided to only install blinds on the south side and in the bedroom; we would never use the others anyway. Electric operation is indeed convenient, but probably involves substantial additional cost, so we would prefer manual blinds... or is it not that expensive compared to the blinds themselves?
Do you mean a chimney by “external combustion air supply”? The offer includes a two-flue chimney, right?
@T.H.:
I will inquire about the other types of insulation as well – also regarding the thermal protection certificate – thanks for the hint. I have summarized the remaining details above – is the air-to-water heat pump a good choice?
@Bauexperte:
Thank you very much for all the suggestions.
As I read it, the provider told us that the ventilation system will be installed in the utility room (approx. 8 sqm (86 sq ft)). It can also be installed in the attic, but then this would need better insulation, which would cost an additional approx. 3500 EUR.
Does this mean that if I add a solar system to the ventilation system, it will only result in a relatively “low” additional cost of about 3000 EUR? I always thought this item would be much higher...
You are right about the building envelope according to KfW70; that really makes sense.
Thanks again, I will continue to research and study this and maybe you have some more tips or advice...?!
Best regards,
Tim
First of all, thank you very much for your opinions. You’re right, I had only mentioned general things so far and no further details. I’ll try to make sense of the documents and post them here now :-)
The following notes/details were not included in the original post:
- Turnkey house (including painting, etc.) without basement, built on a slab-on-grade
- Exterior walls: 36.5cm (14 inches)
- Interior walls: 11.5cm (4.5 inches)
- Insulation for the entire house including attic according to Energy Saving Ordinance 2009
- Windows with insulated glazing (Ug 0.7)
- Window sills made of granite / Jura marble
- Wooden front door (approx. 2200 gross)
- Wooden staircase with railing
- Wall tiles 20x25cm (approx. 28 EUR gross)
- Floor tiles 20x20cm (approx. 34 EUR gross)
- Laminate flooring (approx. 22 EUR gross)
- Terrace (27 sqm (290 sq ft))
- Controlled ventilation system Bu derus Logavent HRV21
- If a heat pump is used, it would be the following model: LA 9TU (Dimpl ex)
- The level of fittings (heating, plumbing, floors) is upper mid-range; so we didn’t want luxury, but also not the cheapest option.
Not included in the offer:
- Exterior landscaping
- Garages
- Fireplace (only the connection and a two-flue chimney)
- Entrance platform
- Utility connections and fees for authorities
@perlenmann:
You’re right, we currently live in a 20-year-old house, windows are 15 years old, and insulation corresponds to the standard from 15 years ago... plus the apartment is smaller with 80 sqm (860 sq ft). Are there no websites or examples showing roughly what others consume with comparable houses built to KfW70, Energy Saving Ordinance 2009 standards, etc.? I have already included the utilities like gas in our additional costs of 20K.
@TomTom:
You are right, but we wanted to first set a budget (200K to 220K) to finance a turnkey house according to our wishes. The exterior landscaping, garage, etc. will come later, step by step :-)
SAT and LAN are included in the offer with 4 connections each, as well as the terrace.
Electric blinds are really nice, but we decided to only install blinds on the south side and in the bedroom; we would never use the others anyway. Electric operation is indeed convenient, but probably involves substantial additional cost, so we would prefer manual blinds... or is it not that expensive compared to the blinds themselves?
Do you mean a chimney by “external combustion air supply”? The offer includes a two-flue chimney, right?
@T.H.:
I will inquire about the other types of insulation as well – also regarding the thermal protection certificate – thanks for the hint. I have summarized the remaining details above – is the air-to-water heat pump a good choice?
@Bauexperte:
Thank you very much for all the suggestions.
As I read it, the provider told us that the ventilation system will be installed in the utility room (approx. 8 sqm (86 sq ft)). It can also be installed in the attic, but then this would need better insulation, which would cost an additional approx. 3500 EUR.
Does this mean that if I add a solar system to the ventilation system, it will only result in a relatively “low” additional cost of about 3000 EUR? I always thought this item would be much higher...
You are right about the building envelope according to KfW70; that really makes sense.
Thanks again, I will continue to research and study this and maybe you have some more tips or advice...?!
Best regards,
Tim
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