ᐅ Is it possible to determine the deductible costs with a rough estimate?
Created on: 28 Mar 2017 14:06
M
mertmk3
Hello everyone,
Now that the land is almost definitely secured and we have had initial talks with architects, one of them appeals to us quite well. Only one question remains unclear: How high will the fee be? According to the architect, he will provide a detailed fee breakdown before each work package. However, this doesn’t help me because I need to know the approximate costs BEFORE commissioning in order to properly calculate the overall project budget. After using the HOAI calculators, I arrived at a fee of 61,000€ for a total sum of roughly 400,000€ despite the minimum rate! If that is really the case, I will quickly reconsider the idea of building with an architect. I assume that the 400,000€ total cost does not include all billable items and that I am probably making a mistake in calculating the fee. The question is: How can I estimate an architect’s fee based only on an approximate total amount without a detailed breakdown of the individual construction costs, so I can include it in my overall budget?
Can I ask the architect for a fee offer in advance, specifying what the fee would be based on the corresponding total amount?
Thanks for your advice!
Best regards
Martin
Now that the land is almost definitely secured and we have had initial talks with architects, one of them appeals to us quite well. Only one question remains unclear: How high will the fee be? According to the architect, he will provide a detailed fee breakdown before each work package. However, this doesn’t help me because I need to know the approximate costs BEFORE commissioning in order to properly calculate the overall project budget. After using the HOAI calculators, I arrived at a fee of 61,000€ for a total sum of roughly 400,000€ despite the minimum rate! If that is really the case, I will quickly reconsider the idea of building with an architect. I assume that the 400,000€ total cost does not include all billable items and that I am probably making a mistake in calculating the fee. The question is: How can I estimate an architect’s fee based only on an approximate total amount without a detailed breakdown of the individual construction costs, so I can include it in my overall budget?
Can I ask the architect for a fee offer in advance, specifying what the fee would be based on the corresponding total amount?
Thanks for your advice!
Best regards
Martin
S
Steffen8029 Mar 2017 10:27Deliverer schrieb:
I would say that every construction project can go well or poorly. We chose our architect because he was upfront from the start about the maximum costs. In the end, it actually cost a bit less, even though we made changes and slight upgrades during the process. He even included an additional conservatory in the plans.
Additionally, building with an architect was tens of thousands of euros cheaper than the lowest bids from general contractors.
So, you shouldn’t make such general statements.I'm not saying that building with an architect is more expensive than using a general contractor. On the contrary, I’m sure that if we had built OUR house the same way with a general contractor, it would probably have cost about 100,000 euros more.
If the architect is good, they start right away with a realistically high budget. But most people would probably run away then—including me. If we had known the costs from today at the beginning, we probably a) wouldn’t have been able to do it and b) wouldn’t have built with an architect. Looking back, I’m glad we didn’t know and underestimated it significantly. In the end, we are getting our dream home.
I have received exactly this feedback from two acquaintances. They compared several prefabricated houses, general contractors, and two architects. The architect’s estimate was about €20,000 (approximately $22,000) lower than the lowest comparable offer. In the end, their actual cost was around €5,000 (about $5,500) above the architect’s estimate. I assume that, overall, they were still cheaper than going with the general contractor.
Of course, this is not always the case, but such an outcome is definitely possible. You just need to clearly define the framework conditions in advance.
Of course, this is not always the case, but such an outcome is definitely possible. You just need to clearly define the framework conditions in advance.
We are also managing the project with separate contracts, but we don’t have an architect—instead, we have a construction engineer. However, that shouldn’t make much difference because the engineer is actually supposed to bill according to HOAI (the official fee structure for architects and engineers in Germany). In our case, though, this is not applied. We do not pay the fee based on HOAI. Our engineer himself says that he would never get jobs around here if he strictly charged according to HOAI. We live in a very rural area far from any major city.
At the beginning, our engineer quoted us his fee, which is somewhat related to the total house price but, as mentioned, is not calculated according to HOAI. We agreed on this fee more or less as a fixed price so we would have planning security. So, if we decide on upgrades or changes, his fee does not increase.
For the pure house costs plus garage (excluding other expenses like fees, professional fees, utility connections, landscaping, etc.), we pay him only about 4.5% for all service phases. Including structural engineering and surveying, it comes to just under 6%. Yes, that sounds inexpensive. It is, but as I said, this is a very rural area where things work a bit differently. Overall, building here is somewhat cheaper than in other parts of Germany, from what I can tell.
Neighbors who also built with him and are nearly finished have confirmed that his cost estimates are realistic—unless you significantly upgrade (which is your own decision, not the architect’s fault). Of course, we will likely still have some additional costs because you want one or another upgrade. However, it should not be too much because our engineer has already planned the cost breakdown fairly generously, with some buffer included for each trade, and, as I said, almost everything we want is already accounted for. Since we researched thoroughly well before starting, we knew from the beginning what we wanted and what not. Large upgrades (except in sanitary fixtures) are unlikely now. If needed, we also have our additional buffer for unforeseen items and upgrades. For large upgrades, though, we don’t have the budget. We are middle-income earners with average income (certainly a good deal lower than the forum average) and average expectations. Our house will be a completely normal average house without any particularly upscale features. We don’t want more than that.
Offers from general contractors were all significantly(!) above the cost estimate from our engineer. That’s why we chose the route of separate contracts. In this region, it’s quite normal to build with an architect and separate contracts. Almost none of the houses around here are built with general contractors; the vast majority build with architects—simply because it is cheaper to build with an architect here. That already makes a difference of several tens of thousands of euros! But, as I said, we have only just started building, and I obviously can’t guarantee that it will definitely stay that way. You really need to trust your architect to some extent, that they know what they are doing and won’t plan costs unrealistically. Cost certainty is, of course, greater with a general contractor, which for us would probably have been the more expensive option. We’ll talk again in a year.
At the beginning, our engineer quoted us his fee, which is somewhat related to the total house price but, as mentioned, is not calculated according to HOAI. We agreed on this fee more or less as a fixed price so we would have planning security. So, if we decide on upgrades or changes, his fee does not increase.
For the pure house costs plus garage (excluding other expenses like fees, professional fees, utility connections, landscaping, etc.), we pay him only about 4.5% for all service phases. Including structural engineering and surveying, it comes to just under 6%. Yes, that sounds inexpensive. It is, but as I said, this is a very rural area where things work a bit differently. Overall, building here is somewhat cheaper than in other parts of Germany, from what I can tell.
Deliverer schrieb:It will probably be similar for us. "Probably" because we have only just started building and, naturally, I can only say later if that actually turns out to be true. In my opinion, our engineer has already realistically planned the costs and prepared a realistic cost estimate based on actual quotes from the companies that will be doing the work. So almost everything we want is already accounted for, including “extras” like colored window frames, electric blinds and some venetian blinds, barrier-free showers, realistic electrical equipment (adequate number of sockets, etc.), a decent ventilation system… almost everything is included. Only for the sanitary fixtures do we know for sure we will make upgrades, and we have planned for those costs from the beginning.
Additionally, building with an architect was tens of thousands of euros cheaper than the cheapest offers from general contractors.
Neighbors who also built with him and are nearly finished have confirmed that his cost estimates are realistic—unless you significantly upgrade (which is your own decision, not the architect’s fault). Of course, we will likely still have some additional costs because you want one or another upgrade. However, it should not be too much because our engineer has already planned the cost breakdown fairly generously, with some buffer included for each trade, and, as I said, almost everything we want is already accounted for. Since we researched thoroughly well before starting, we knew from the beginning what we wanted and what not. Large upgrades (except in sanitary fixtures) are unlikely now. If needed, we also have our additional buffer for unforeseen items and upgrades. For large upgrades, though, we don’t have the budget. We are middle-income earners with average income (certainly a good deal lower than the forum average) and average expectations. Our house will be a completely normal average house without any particularly upscale features. We don’t want more than that.
Offers from general contractors were all significantly(!) above the cost estimate from our engineer. That’s why we chose the route of separate contracts. In this region, it’s quite normal to build with an architect and separate contracts. Almost none of the houses around here are built with general contractors; the vast majority build with architects—simply because it is cheaper to build with an architect here. That already makes a difference of several tens of thousands of euros! But, as I said, we have only just started building, and I obviously can’t guarantee that it will definitely stay that way. You really need to trust your architect to some extent, that they know what they are doing and won’t plan costs unrealistically. Cost certainty is, of course, greater with a general contractor, which for us would probably have been the more expensive option. We’ll talk again in a year.
Thank you for your detailed response. Although our construction project is located in the Stuttgart metropolitan area, I am confident that a fee lower than the HOAI rate is also possible here. At least one acquaintance confirmed this to me, although it was already 6–7 years ago when they built.
I will report back on what I am able to achieve.
I will report back on what I am able to achieve.
One last question: How can I find a good architect in my area? So far, we have been recommended one through acquaintances, but we are not completely sure about them yet. We also met another architect at the showcase home center in Fellbach, but we’re still undecided there as well. Searching online has proven quite difficult. Either the websites do not exist, or I am not impressed by them, at least in terms of their references. And trying out every option would be quite time-consuming.
Since we are building in an established residential area, it’s not as easy as just asking neighbors who they built their houses with.
Since we are building in an established residential area, it’s not as easy as just asking neighbors who they built their houses with.
S
Steffen8030 Mar 2017 10:27mertmk3 schrieb:
One last question: How can I find a good architect in my area? So far, we have been recommended one through acquaintances, but we are not completely sure yet. We also met another one through the show home center in Fellbach, but we are still uncertain about that one as well. Searching online is quite difficult. Either the websites don’t exist or the references don’t appeal to me. Trying out each architect individually is very time-consuming. Since we are building in an established residential area, it’s not like we can just ask the neighbors who they worked with.You want a good architect who will also work for below market price, all during a massive building boom… I wish you good luck!
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