Hello everyone,
I have a meeting with a construction company in the next few days for an initial consultation. I have already looked for information on their website and found the attached scope of work. What do you think about it? Does it seem clear, or are there any potential pitfalls? Since I am still quite inexperienced with the topic of house building, I find it difficult to interpret this description.
Thank you in advance for your help.
I have a meeting with a construction company in the next few days for an initial consultation. I have already looked for information on their website and found the attached scope of work. What do you think about it? Does it seem clear, or are there any potential pitfalls? Since I am still quite inexperienced with the topic of house building, I find it difficult to interpret this description.
Thank you in advance for your help.
B
Bieber08159 Sep 2015 19:50Before getting lost in the details of various building and service descriptions, it might be helpful to start with a general overview.
- Do you receive a turnkey house, ready to move into (don’t forget the final cleaning)? Or are painting and flooring work not included?
- Are exterior landscaping and site finishes included, or will you be stepping through mud and entering the house over a tilted pallet?
- What is the overall impression (!) — is it rather high quality or not?
- Are (all?) additional costs included? Site facilities, etc.?
- Who submits the building permit / planning permission application, and are the necessary documents provided?
- Does the scope of work description already honestly indicate what is missing?
With this kind of foundation, many will be able to make an initial shortlist. Some want to build as cheaply as possible and do a lot themselves, while others prefer an all-inclusive worry-free package.
After this initial selection, you can refine it according to your own preferences. One person might insist on a specific type of brick or stone, another might require that the “KfW55” energy standard is already included.
(We have tiles up to a gross list price of €25 per square meter including VAT [...] tile sizes between 15cm x 20cm (6 inches x 8 inches), 40cm x 40cm (16 inches x 16 inches), 30cm x 60cm (12 inches x 24 inches), grout color gray. The tiles we have now selected have list prices just under €20 per square meter. That’s one way to do it [any price difference will of course be settled when the time comes].).
- Do you receive a turnkey house, ready to move into (don’t forget the final cleaning)? Or are painting and flooring work not included?
- Are exterior landscaping and site finishes included, or will you be stepping through mud and entering the house over a tilted pallet?
- What is the overall impression (!) — is it rather high quality or not?
- Are (all?) additional costs included? Site facilities, etc.?
- Who submits the building permit / planning permission application, and are the necessary documents provided?
- Does the scope of work description already honestly indicate what is missing?
With this kind of foundation, many will be able to make an initial shortlist. Some want to build as cheaply as possible and do a lot themselves, while others prefer an all-inclusive worry-free package.
After this initial selection, you can refine it according to your own preferences. One person might insist on a specific type of brick or stone, another might require that the “KfW55” energy standard is already included.
(We have tiles up to a gross list price of €25 per square meter including VAT [...] tile sizes between 15cm x 20cm (6 inches x 8 inches), 40cm x 40cm (16 inches x 16 inches), 30cm x 60cm (12 inches x 24 inches), grout color gray. The tiles we have now selected have list prices just under €20 per square meter. That’s one way to do it [any price difference will of course be settled when the time comes].).
What an intensely emotional discussion about a rather straightforward topic...
I believe everyone is aware that non-experts cannot evaluate construction specifications in detail—and they don’t want to either—hopefully, no one expects that.
What non-experts can do is share their opinions—that’s how a forum works (at least that’s what I always assumed). One opinion might be “not enough power outlets,” another could be “you need to consult a professional for that.”
So, here’s my opinion.
I believe everyone is aware that non-experts cannot evaluate construction specifications in detail—and they don’t want to either—hopefully, no one expects that.
What non-experts can do is share their opinions—that’s how a forum works (at least that’s what I always assumed). One opinion might be “not enough power outlets,” another could be “you need to consult a professional for that.”
So, here’s my opinion.
B
Bauexperte10 Sep 2015 20:01Good evening,
You are absolutely right! That’s why I have limited the thread to the responses from users who focused on the original poster’s question.
Regards, Bauexperte
BeHaElJa schrieb:
What laypeople do is add their two cents—that’s how a forum works (at least that’s what I always thought). One kind of “two cents” might be “not enough electrical outlets,” another might be “you need to hire a professional for that”...
Just my opinion.
You are absolutely right! That’s why I have limited the thread to the responses from users who focused on the original poster’s question.
Regards, Bauexperte
G
Goldi0911110 Sep 2015 21:09Good evening everyone,
Thank you all for your responses. I think I will form my own opinion and possibly create an overview of the different services offered by the construction companies to make them easier to compare.
In the future, I will probably need to phrase my questions differently so that no one feels their honor or work is being challenged—that was never my intention. I wanted to use this forum to seek help and support...
Thank you all for your responses. I think I will form my own opinion and possibly create an overview of the different services offered by the construction companies to make them easier to compare.
In the future, I will probably need to phrase my questions differently so that no one feels their honor or work is being challenged—that was never my intention. I wanted to use this forum to seek help and support...
B
Bauexperte11 Sep 2015 11:02Good morning,
With every conversation you have, you will become more knowledgeable. I have seen quite a few prospective clients come to meetings armed with huge Excel spreadsheets. It seems to help them keep track. Although, for someone sitting face to face with that mountain of paper, it’s always amusing to try and catch the moment when the client finally looks up.
If you meant me, you neither insulted my honor nor questioned my work—how could you? Please don’t worry about that! Admittedly, I could have avoided responding so bluntly and instead should have just deleted my reply—these past weeks have been quite stressful.
Basically, I wanted to point out that a forum cannot fully evaluate a detailed offer. Apart from a few obvious and some discreet experts, most participants are laypeople. Aside from the “opinions” (as BeHaIJa put it so colloquially), you shouldn’t expect much more. Relatively minor details, such as the number of power outlets, will certainly become relevant during the later final selections, but at the initial stage they should not be the deciding factor for choosing or rejecting a builder. You should budget some contingency for extras in any case.
What stands out to me after reviewing the offer (as a small apology for the “misuse” of your thread) is that it is far too brief at only 5 pages. What I find unacceptable is the uninspired listing of the expected services, something like: “I’ll just list what should be included, but I prefer to avoid exact descriptions.” It’s clear that not every detail can be listed—after all, these are not bidding documents prepared by an architect. But for example, you should at least know whether 10, 20, or 30 cm (4, 8, or 12 inches) of topsoil will be removed. Also, it isn’t clearly communicated that the disposal of excess soil will be your responsibility; three exclamation marks don’t really help here (they might just indicate that a professional should ask more detailed questions and, in my opinion, have no place in a detailed offer). Here, the engineer who wrote the offer shows through—he focuses on precise specifications for things like the screed build-up but assumes in all other cases that the client will blindly trust him, perhaps because of his education—but who can really know that at the start of negotiations?
This pattern continues through all 19 points—I don’t see how a layperson should be satisfied with this, since there are more open questions than answers, especially regarding the heating trade. For example, tiles: €25.00 is not a bad price for materials alone, but not exceptional either, so you should set aside a budget for possible upgrades. What’s missing, and important from a client’s perspective, is information about tile formats. What standard size is included? You could end up with 10 x 10 cm (4 x 4 inch) tiles, which can become quite expensive. By comparison, our offer runs 28 pages and doesn’t contain many pictures.
The offer should also clarify the type of workmanship—for example, “in accordance with applicable technical standards” (or words to that effect); that the client must commission a soil report; and provide a note about a possibly required chemical soil analysis. Where are the details on warranties, safety, and much more? If the associated contract—which should include this information—is written in a similar fashion, I would be very concerned if I were you as a potential client. Although an independent expert can review the contract, if there are ambiguous phrases or missing essential content, they must advise you to consult a lawyer. Legal advice in Germany is reserved exclusively for qualified professionals.
What I have outlined is just a brief summary of the 5 pages. A professional’s thorough review would probably reveal many more issues. So if you are confident that the engineer responsible for this offer is the partner you want, seek external advice—it’s widely available in Saxony. From well-known associations to freelance building surveyors and even lawyers specialized in construction-related documents. If you are still searching, review other offers and start your Excel spreadsheet. Offers can’t be compared 100% directly, but you will definitely develop a sense of which ones are worth pursuing further.
From my perspective, just don’t fall into the mistaken belief that “engineer to engineer” will take care of the entire building adventure. When it comes down to it—hopefully never, as no client wishes for this—the only thing that counts is the written word. If it’s missing, you didn’t buy it and you will also be left with the court and attorney fees; whether you are a member of a relevant building association or not.
That’s exactly why it was created. For example, looking at all the threads about financing or floor plans, I am impressed by the abundance of very good and well-founded advice (from both laypeople and bankers) given to the respective original posters. However, these are always questions related to concrete examples. If you had asked, for instance, “Is the summary of the expected services in the first paragraph of the offer sufficient?” a flood of answers would have come your way (I’m absolutely sure of that), because any homeowner can contribute something useful on this topic that would definitely help you progress.
So feel free to continue using the forum—and of course also to contribute yourself when you think you can answer a question—but please ask your questions in small, manageable portions; that’s the best way to get the answers you hope for.
Best regards,
Bauexperte
Goldi09111 schrieb:
Thank you all for the responses. I think I will form my own opinion and possibly create an overview of the various services offered by the construction companies so that they can be better compared.
With every conversation you have, you will become more knowledgeable. I have seen quite a few prospective clients come to meetings armed with huge Excel spreadsheets. It seems to help them keep track. Although, for someone sitting face to face with that mountain of paper, it’s always amusing to try and catch the moment when the client finally looks up.
Goldi09111 schrieb:
In the future, I’ll probably need to phrase my questions differently so that no one feels their honor or work is being attacked; that was never my intention.
If you meant me, you neither insulted my honor nor questioned my work—how could you? Please don’t worry about that! Admittedly, I could have avoided responding so bluntly and instead should have just deleted my reply—these past weeks have been quite stressful.
Basically, I wanted to point out that a forum cannot fully evaluate a detailed offer. Apart from a few obvious and some discreet experts, most participants are laypeople. Aside from the “opinions” (as BeHaIJa put it so colloquially), you shouldn’t expect much more. Relatively minor details, such as the number of power outlets, will certainly become relevant during the later final selections, but at the initial stage they should not be the deciding factor for choosing or rejecting a builder. You should budget some contingency for extras in any case.
What stands out to me after reviewing the offer (as a small apology for the “misuse” of your thread) is that it is far too brief at only 5 pages. What I find unacceptable is the uninspired listing of the expected services, something like: “I’ll just list what should be included, but I prefer to avoid exact descriptions.” It’s clear that not every detail can be listed—after all, these are not bidding documents prepared by an architect. But for example, you should at least know whether 10, 20, or 30 cm (4, 8, or 12 inches) of topsoil will be removed. Also, it isn’t clearly communicated that the disposal of excess soil will be your responsibility; three exclamation marks don’t really help here (they might just indicate that a professional should ask more detailed questions and, in my opinion, have no place in a detailed offer). Here, the engineer who wrote the offer shows through—he focuses on precise specifications for things like the screed build-up but assumes in all other cases that the client will blindly trust him, perhaps because of his education—but who can really know that at the start of negotiations?
This pattern continues through all 19 points—I don’t see how a layperson should be satisfied with this, since there are more open questions than answers, especially regarding the heating trade. For example, tiles: €25.00 is not a bad price for materials alone, but not exceptional either, so you should set aside a budget for possible upgrades. What’s missing, and important from a client’s perspective, is information about tile formats. What standard size is included? You could end up with 10 x 10 cm (4 x 4 inch) tiles, which can become quite expensive. By comparison, our offer runs 28 pages and doesn’t contain many pictures.
The offer should also clarify the type of workmanship—for example, “in accordance with applicable technical standards” (or words to that effect); that the client must commission a soil report; and provide a note about a possibly required chemical soil analysis. Where are the details on warranties, safety, and much more? If the associated contract—which should include this information—is written in a similar fashion, I would be very concerned if I were you as a potential client. Although an independent expert can review the contract, if there are ambiguous phrases or missing essential content, they must advise you to consult a lawyer. Legal advice in Germany is reserved exclusively for qualified professionals.
What I have outlined is just a brief summary of the 5 pages. A professional’s thorough review would probably reveal many more issues. So if you are confident that the engineer responsible for this offer is the partner you want, seek external advice—it’s widely available in Saxony. From well-known associations to freelance building surveyors and even lawyers specialized in construction-related documents. If you are still searching, review other offers and start your Excel spreadsheet. Offers can’t be compared 100% directly, but you will definitely develop a sense of which ones are worth pursuing further.
From my perspective, just don’t fall into the mistaken belief that “engineer to engineer” will take care of the entire building adventure. When it comes down to it—hopefully never, as no client wishes for this—the only thing that counts is the written word. If it’s missing, you didn’t buy it and you will also be left with the court and attorney fees; whether you are a member of a relevant building association or not.
Goldi09111 schrieb:
I wanted to use this forum to get help and support…
That’s exactly why it was created. For example, looking at all the threads about financing or floor plans, I am impressed by the abundance of very good and well-founded advice (from both laypeople and bankers) given to the respective original posters. However, these are always questions related to concrete examples. If you had asked, for instance, “Is the summary of the expected services in the first paragraph of the offer sufficient?” a flood of answers would have come your way (I’m absolutely sure of that), because any homeowner can contribute something useful on this topic that would definitely help you progress.
So feel free to continue using the forum—and of course also to contribute yourself when you think you can answer a question—but please ask your questions in small, manageable portions; that’s the best way to get the answers you hope for.
Best regards,
Bauexperte