Hello,
I hope someone here can help me.
We are currently renovating a house.
I have requested a quote from a plasterer because we want to have all the rooms plastered. An employee already came to take the measurements. In his quote, he states the wall area as 220m² (2,370 sq ft).
I took the time to measure everything myself. I simply multiplied each wall’s length by its height and always subtracted windows and doors. I came up with a total of 158m² (1,700 sq ft).
I spoke to the plasterer about this, and he said the 220m² figure is correct because doors and windows that are smaller than 2.5m² (27 sq ft) are included. Only windows larger than 2.5m² are deducted. He referenced the DIN 18350 regulation for this.
To me, this doesn’t make any sense, since I am paying for materials and labor based on the square meters.
The actual area should be 158m², not 220m².
It’s like buying 20 liters of fuel at a gas station but being charged for 40 liters at the register.
Does anyone understand this and could help me see it more clearly?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Kristof
I hope someone here can help me.
We are currently renovating a house.
I have requested a quote from a plasterer because we want to have all the rooms plastered. An employee already came to take the measurements. In his quote, he states the wall area as 220m² (2,370 sq ft).
I took the time to measure everything myself. I simply multiplied each wall’s length by its height and always subtracted windows and doors. I came up with a total of 158m² (1,700 sq ft).
I spoke to the plasterer about this, and he said the 220m² figure is correct because doors and windows that are smaller than 2.5m² (27 sq ft) are included. Only windows larger than 2.5m² are deducted. He referenced the DIN 18350 regulation for this.
To me, this doesn’t make any sense, since I am paying for materials and labor based on the square meters.
The actual area should be 158m², not 220m².
It’s like buying 20 liters of fuel at a gas station but being charged for 40 liters at the register.
Does anyone understand this and could help me see it more clearly?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Kristof
Winniefred25 Mar 2021 15:14Hi, in our 100-year-old house, not even all the interior doors are the same size, but roughly similar. I wouldn’t expect someone to measure every single door individually, but at least measure one and note the quantity. For the windows, a rough estimate would also be enough for me. But just rounding up the wall area somehow—I don’t know, I would have found that strange too. He explained it later, which is okay, but I still find it odd.
Our tiler, electrician, and plumbers all took pretty detailed measurements, even though you could probably estimate more roughly in those trades as well. For larger projects like this whole house, I would expect more accuracy, because the bigger the project, the larger the deviation from the actual price later on (and for that, measurements are taken precisely, not roughly estimated 😉 ).
Our tiler, electrician, and plumbers all took pretty detailed measurements, even though you could probably estimate more roughly in those trades as well. For larger projects like this whole house, I would expect more accuracy, because the bigger the project, the larger the deviation from the actual price later on (and for that, measurements are taken precisely, not roughly estimated 😉 ).
netuser schrieb:
I doubt it, but OK...Every architect, construction manager, etc., knows this, and a significant portion of building contracts probably come from them.netuser schrieb:
Why make it simple when it can be complicated?
Yes, it can be done. But it would be more appropriate in this case, when taking the measurements, to record, for example, the 158 sqm (1700 sq ft) and clearly show the corresponding factor according to DIN for the extrapolation to the client. Just a one-liner explanation, and that’s it!If the client is willing to pay upfront for the preparation of the offer with measurements, then of course it can be done that way. Taking rough measurements requires significantly less effort and can be done more easily and free of charge for the client.
HarvSpec schrieb:
Every architect, construction manager, and so on knows this, and they likely account for a significant share of construction contracts. Especially when the client is not an architect, construction manager, or similar professional, and the craftsman is still willing to offer their services to the layperson, they should take 3 minutes to clearly describe the items! They would only need to spend 3 minutes once and include a general reference to the relevant standard, such as DIN or something similar, in their calculation.
That way, experts won’t mind if they skip reading it, and the layperson will appreciate understanding the price breakdown for the item.
HarvSpec schrieb:
If the client is willing to pay in advance just for the creation of the offer including a detailed measurement (survey), it can of course be done that way. Taking rough measurements requires significantly less effort and can therefore be done more easily and free of charge for the client. How is the client or layperson supposed to know that a detailed measurement requires a lot more effort than taking rough measurements? I also don’t believe that the original poster actually asked or instructed the craftsman to take a detailed measurement!
In my view, this is part of customer- and service-oriented behavior: either inform the client about the situation beforehand or clearly indicate it in the offer afterwards.
The real reason is probably that most craftsmen nowadays have full order books and obviously don’t feel the need to recognize the CUSTOMER as such.
That also seems to work, as you can see from the comments in this thread.
Over-measuring is neither about inaccuracies nor about creating a hidden surcharge by omitting certain deductions. Rather, it is a fact that 1. the lost area of openings is offset by the added areas of their reveals, which 2. when balanced against each other, sometimes result in more and sometimes less, and 3. after decades of practical experience, they happen to be quite accurately balanced when setting the threshold for ignored openings at 2.5 square meters (27 square feet). What benefit would there be for the client if the measurements were analyzed with obsessive precision down to the square centimeter as the basis for the quote? — None! (Except for the special satisfaction of their obsession with exact millimeters — which the craftsman does not expect.) Of course, the client could inform the tradesperson in advance, “I’m very precise, so please give me a thoroughly itemized calculation.” But then they should not be surprised if the tradesperson responds that they are surprised and have so far learned as a plasterer that people simply want nicer homes. Taking measurements that can be completed in twenty minutes and explaining them in detail for a full hour (which would by no means increase the accuracy of the cost estimate!) would be priceless. Any prostitute in such a situation (rightly so) would ask her client: “Do you want sex or talk?” Painters paint, plasterers shape ornaments, and a psychiatrist can help millimeter-obsessive clients far better than any tradesperson. And people wonder why there is a skilled labor shortage in the trades when they motivate the tradespeople with strange questions to tell their children: “Don’t learn the same trade as your father; better join customs and hunt down alcohol tax evaders — at least nobody there will ask you to explain in detail why openings under two and a half square meters (27 square feet) are simply over-measured.” Such fixed allowances based on experience are not fraud but administrative simplifications. They make an important contribution to preventing apprentices interested in the trades from being driven away by odd questions. Otherwise, our economy would suffer from an excess of alcohol tax inspectors while simultaneously facing a shortage of plasterers! Is this really so HARD to understand???
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Winniefred25 Mar 2021 17:29I’ll get around to doing that soon as well; I’ll roughly estimate for my clients and see what they think 😎. On the other hand, I don’t understand how someone could not understand that, as a client, you want a reasonably accurate cost estimate. For example, I can’t afford that, and it’s not common practice here either. I need to look at exactly what the client wants and provide the most precise quote possible, and that for each client individually—that’s part of the business.
Winniefred25 Mar 2021 17:31But I'll keep that in mind. We will need to have the ground floor re-plastered sometime within the next 2-3 years. Otherwise, we would do the plastering ourselves, but for the living areas, I’d prefer to hire a company due to time constraints. I’ll measure everything myself beforehand and then request quotes from 2-3 companies using those figures. Otherwise, each company calculates their own costs independently, and I can’t compare them.
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