ᐅ House without a garage and basement? Converting the attic? Vent pipe?
Created on: 24 Jun 2015 19:59
G
Grym
We have been considering the following:
If we want to build without a basement and without a garage, preferably with just a carport, does it make sense – and what would the cost difference be – to convert the attic instead?
We plan to build a structure approximately 10.50 meters x 8.50 meters (34.4 ft x 27.9 ft) along the street. On top, a gable roof with a 45-degree pitch (alternatively: only 40 degrees), and the knee wall on the first floor should be about 1.40 meters (4.6 ft) high. At the highest point, the interior height would probably be around 2.80 meters (9.2 ft).
Instead of insulating the top floor ceiling, we would insulate the roof. For cost reasons, the top floor ceiling would remain a wooden beam construction (I assume?). The attic would be an unheated secondary space but equipped with at least one ventilation opening.
The staircase up to the attic should be reasonably comfortable. What is the cost of a standard residential staircase? We might simply extend the living area staircase to the attic if the additional cost is not too high.
In the medium term, we want a wood-and-metal design carport for two cars next to the house, with bike racks in the rear area (which in my opinion looks much better than a concrete and steel garage box). The bikes would be weather-protected but quickly accessible. Necessary garden tools will be stored in the utility room; unnecessary items, seasonal goods, heirlooms, etc., will go into the attic (within the thermal envelope and ventilated by a controlled residential ventilation system). Likewise, winter storage of the garden chairs would be in the attic; in summer, they will remain outside permanently.
It is also unclear whether and what kind of equipment could be located in the utility room (ground or air source heat pump, controlled residential ventilation system, hot water hygiene storage tank, etc.).
Another question is what the cost impact would be for this kind of attic conversion (planned from the start and carried out by the general contractor) compared to the standard option (insulating the top floor ceiling, insulated pull-down stairs to the unheated attic space).
If we want to build without a basement and without a garage, preferably with just a carport, does it make sense – and what would the cost difference be – to convert the attic instead?
We plan to build a structure approximately 10.50 meters x 8.50 meters (34.4 ft x 27.9 ft) along the street. On top, a gable roof with a 45-degree pitch (alternatively: only 40 degrees), and the knee wall on the first floor should be about 1.40 meters (4.6 ft) high. At the highest point, the interior height would probably be around 2.80 meters (9.2 ft).
Instead of insulating the top floor ceiling, we would insulate the roof. For cost reasons, the top floor ceiling would remain a wooden beam construction (I assume?). The attic would be an unheated secondary space but equipped with at least one ventilation opening.
The staircase up to the attic should be reasonably comfortable. What is the cost of a standard residential staircase? We might simply extend the living area staircase to the attic if the additional cost is not too high.
In the medium term, we want a wood-and-metal design carport for two cars next to the house, with bike racks in the rear area (which in my opinion looks much better than a concrete and steel garage box). The bikes would be weather-protected but quickly accessible. Necessary garden tools will be stored in the utility room; unnecessary items, seasonal goods, heirlooms, etc., will go into the attic (within the thermal envelope and ventilated by a controlled residential ventilation system). Likewise, winter storage of the garden chairs would be in the attic; in summer, they will remain outside permanently.
It is also unclear whether and what kind of equipment could be located in the utility room (ground or air source heat pump, controlled residential ventilation system, hot water hygiene storage tank, etc.).
Another question is what the cost impact would be for this kind of attic conversion (planned from the start and carried out by the general contractor) compared to the standard option (insulating the top floor ceiling, insulated pull-down stairs to the unheated attic space).
Grym schrieb:
All the details like cloakroom, windows, and the upper floor are missing. Hopefully, the upper floor won’t be too complicated since it only needs to accommodate 2 children’s bedrooms, 1 master bedroom, and 1 bathroom.The answer was given by Musketier.
Musketier schrieb:
Grym, that won’t work. You need to consider the whole project, including both floors, the exterior elevations, and the position on the plot. The planner can’t just add a cloakroom into this dark room later on.Exactly.
Grym schrieb:
The living/dining area is certainly not too small at 34sqm without the kitchen,The room can be smaller if it is well structured, that is, designed to provide both a private retreat and an open space for socializing.
Grym schrieb:
The kitchen should work well with almost 9sqm,Try furnishing it first.
Grym schrieb:
The utility/technical room (HAR) is just under 7.5sqm.That’s barely enough space for the technical installations. TECHNICAL installations — I will come back to that.
Grym schrieb:
Cloakroom either by recessing the WC towards the utility roomSo the utility room should get even smaller?
Grym schrieb:
I showed the plan to my wife and she said finding space for a cloakroom and then it fits. A hallway width of 120cm is certainly not too narrow.Grym schrieb:
120, maybe 125cm should be enough for a door with a large glazed sidelight.Wait, what? The rough opening of the front door is about 113cm, if I’m not mistaken. Where exactly is there room left for glass? That width barely allows for the door handle when the door is open.
Grym schrieb:
The utility room is no further from the living room than it would be if accessed from the hallway.Grym schrieb:
The kitchen is even closer to the living room than if accessed from the hallway.Grym schrieb:
The living room is the central space in the house, so if you want to optimize routes, it’s from the living room to room X (kitchen, utility room).Your last three quotes reveal your misunderstanding. I feel like I read somewhere that your current living room also serves as a hallway with several doors leading off it, and you’re happy with that.
Unfortunately, no one has definitively told you that in a detached house, daily routes are very different from those in a cozy apartment.
My apologies in advance, speaking here as someone who has lived in a house since 1978, first with my parents, later as an owner:
Unless you belong to families who spend all day on the sofa watching TV and snacking and arguing over who goes to the kitchen, your daily routines should be similar to those of most households (except shift workers or home office workers). (Exceptions prove the rule, and I’m also one of those exceptions.)
The routine after getting up in the morning, getting ready, etc., is heading to the kitchen for coffee, breakfast, and so on. Then it’s off to work or staying home.
At home during the day or in the evening, most activities involve using the stairs repeatedly for tidying and cleaning, trips between the utility room, mopping floors, laundry, garden, utility room, kitchen, children’s rooms, ironing upstairs, and so forth. Coffee breaks in the kitchen, cooking, daily activities at the computer, eating, before chilling out in front of the TV in the evening.
And do you notice? Nowhere does your central living room appear.
Unfortunately, you are planning your retreat as a thoroughfare where all the day’s dirt gets spread around, without ever actually living in or using that space properly.
If you have a garden or outdoor areas, you will often be outside watering plants, pulling weeds, sweeping the patio, or enjoying free time on the terrace. Logistically, the front door and utility room work quite well; for going to the terrace, you’d use the living room, kitchen, or dining area.
But should the utility room be designed as a captive space only accessible by passing through every room on the ground floor?
What about the laundry basket being dragged through the utility room door, through the kitchen (sliding door), then through the living room?
What about in 10 years when a teenage daughter wants a snack with a friend late at night? Why would you walk several times through the entire house to get tools (TECHNICAL installations) from the utility room to fix the bike (note: there is no garage yet), or carry smelly yellow garbage bags or empty bottles through the living room? The utility room now no longer has an external door because it is too small.
Why would you expect your (house) wife to groan while carrying laundry upstairs from the utility room, while you show a friend something at the computer?
Why should your children ask their friends to leave just because you are lying on the sofa unwell? (Believe me, in 10 years you will be exhausted after work and want to take a rest — and that won’t be in the bedroom.)
I appreciate unconventional living — I also like customizing layouts to personal needs — but in your case, I don’t see anything logically thought through, only tunnel vision. Any standard floor plan that could be improved by minor changes is spoiled because you focus everything on the living room as the pivot point.
Some of the activities I mentioned take place in the living room, for example: having breakfast, drinking coffee, playing with the child, reading, watching TV, browsing on the computer—or in the future, the laptop—making phone calls, and so on.
For me, the kitchen is purely a functional space. I don’t want to sit there surrounded by lots of cabinets, appliances, and yesterday’s dishes—not even for breakfast or a quick coffee. That’s what the dining table or the sofa are for.
If I take a short power nap during the day, of course, it’s in bed.
Oh, and you mentioned ironing: yes, definitely in the living room. Why would I do that in a small or medium-sized utility room?
For me, the kitchen is purely a functional space. I don’t want to sit there surrounded by lots of cabinets, appliances, and yesterday’s dishes—not even for breakfast or a quick coffee. That’s what the dining table or the sofa are for.
If I take a short power nap during the day, of course, it’s in bed.
Oh, and you mentioned ironing: yes, definitely in the living room. Why would I do that in a small or medium-sized utility room?
Grym schrieb:
For example, having breakfast,in the living room? Then what is the dining room for?
Grym schrieb:
Having coffee or playing with the child, reading, watching TV, surfing on the PC or in the future a laptop, calling, ...).That sounds like evening activities, not daytime work.
Grym schrieb:
For me, the kitchen is purely a functional space. I don’t want to sit among piles of cabinets, technical appliances, and yesterday’s dishes,But you want to sit next to a PC with a tangle of cables, a printer, and who knows what else?
Grym schrieb:
I don’t want to sit among ... yesterday’s dishes,...clearing up???
Grym schrieb:
Why in a small or medium-sized cubicle?I never mentioned that.
Well then... I’m starting to get a picture of your resistance to advice.
Or is it simply an inability to think along?
ypg schrieb:
Well then... I'm starting to get a picture of your resistance to advice.That took a while In defense of Grym, I still have to say something.
Daily routines vary depending on the day of the week and the season, and they will also change as the children or we ourselves get older. I don’t think you can optimally fit every current and future version of daily routines into a single floor plan.
Here are a few examples:
Breakfast, and on weekends also lunch, is eaten at our kitchen table. Our little one also has dinner in the kitchen.
It simply has the advantage that food doesn't end up scattered all over the floor in the living room. We often eat dinner in front of the TV on the couch. In summer, however, we eat outside a lot. So at the moment, our dining table is more or less unused.
But all of this will definitely change once our little one starts having dinner with us and no longer needs a high chair.
During summer, the living room tends to be more of a passage room to the terrace; in winter, however, it is the central part of the house (for playing, living, sometimes working, and partly eating).
Ironing is done
- sometimes in the bedroom, so the clothes can be put away right away,
- sometimes in the living room to chat at the same time, or
- in nice weather, occasionally in the garden.
The guest and office room, which was actually planned for such tasks, is strangely not used for that.
My problem was probably that I believed the architects’ mantra that smart design can save a lot of space. But that’s simply not the case. For our needs, it starts at around 160–165 m² (1700–1775 sq ft). Living room, dining area, and kitchen arranged around a corner, a large utility room, and a properly sized office with a fitness corner cannot fit into 150 m² (1615 sq ft). A new plan, certainly around 165 m² (1775 sq ft), will be ready today or tomorrow.
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